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Nexus Clash :: View topic - Balance: Word of Banish vs. Touch of Dark Exile
Before you go too far with that thought please note that most people here may have/had both angelic and demonic characters.
If they're not demons, they're not whiny little bitches. That comment was aimed at demonic characters, not their players.
Incidentally, I have one demonic character, one angelic character, and one neutral character who just turned good due to overzealous use of Holy Books.
Random aside: man, the damage those books do adds up after a while...
Seth wrote:
And the problem that's been raised isn't a "one character can ignore soak so can kill people in some time easily with enough ap left", but a one-click "insta-win" button, that may kill the fun with ease.
But it's not "Insta-Win". The attack doesn't have 100% accuracy, using it once will cause every nearby demon to gang-beat the Archon to keep it from happening again, and even using it successfully is pretty expensive.
Also, it doesn't grant XP. Even if an Archon has the ability, they might be more tempted to attack the enemy demon for XP than just boot it out the door for a hefty fee without reward.
In addition: it randomly places them in Gehenna, and IIRC there are portals between Elysium and Gehenna. If it places them close to a portal, and with the addition of Wings, the character could be back in maybe a dozen AP.
All that does is promote laziness and ennui: "Why bother raiding? The last three times I raided some active blew me halfway across the map before I got any XP. Raiding is a waste of time." And the game as a whole suffers. This is why I need more information about these skills. From my perspective they are extremely bad both for balance and the long-term health of the game, and I don't see a way to fix these issues.
It seems to me that this discussion is completely ignoring the counter-measures that were implemented at the same time these skills were.
Spell: Dimensional Anchor.
Potion: Potion of Dimensional Surety (not part of the "base" alchemical recipe group - formula must be unlocked via Easter Egg - but the potion itself can be found as a random item drop when searching as well).
Both of these provide immunity to Word of Banishment and Touch of Dark Exile. If you're worried about falling victim to the skills, simply cast the spell or quaff the potion in advance. This is not substantially different than quaffing Death Immunity potions in NW before attacking a demonic faction to guard against a potential active void walker using Breath of the Dead child to blast your raid team to kingdom come in a matter of a few seconds (or using Holy Immunity to prevent Song of the Word from blasting you, or using Electric Immunity to ignore wizards with Electric staves, etc.).
Also, since these countermeasures can be taken *in advance* of being hit with the skills, they require less reaction time than, say, trying to down a vial of angel tears after being on the receiving end of an Agony Curse - which, depending on how well-coordinated your opponents were - could spell instant death in Straylight while you waited for your inventory pane to open.
Are the skills powerful? Yes. Are they somewhat griefy? Yes (I'm still not sure if being removed from a location is as bad as dying, since you are spared the respawn cost at least - of course, you're out in the open, so someone will probably be along shortly to finish you off if you're not paying attention...). But is there a mechanism in place to completely avoid being on the receiving end of them? Yes, a couple such mechanisms, in fact. Let's make sure we take that into account when we're looking at the skills, rather than looking at them in a vacuum. These skills are not "Spock" - there are still rock-paper-scissors elements in play.
(Fun fact: the Sixth Sense ability that Prayer provides is currently a counter-mechanism to the Void Walker's much-touted "assassination" ability, so yes, there is already a way - albeit unreliable - to avoid that, too.)
But is there a mechanism in place to completely avoid being on the receiving end of them? Yes, a couple such mechanisms, in fact.
Yes. Welcome to Rock, Paper, Sci--erm... I mean, BobWar.
Don't mock Rock, Paper, Scissors. It's good game design to have good move A, counter B, and counter-counter C (I think it's best to include counter-counter-counter D for truly rich gameplay, with original move A being the 4*counter, but this is a topic for another time).
The issue I have is that the "counters" to this skill are... rare potions, and a spell only about half the available classes are capable of using. The comparisons to Immunity potions doesn't hold up, because even getting Breathed on isn't going to kill most characters instantly. Damage could roll low, or your soak could render the damage much less substantial, or you can flee and heal. Damage immunity may be the BEST counter, but it is not the ONLY counter. This potion and this spell are the only possible counter to these skills, which makes their presence not just preferable, but absolutely mandatory. The end result is that nobody (but demons especially) won't raid unless all of their raiders has a "protection from inta-kill" potion. That increases the costs of what it takes to raid, reducing how often people go raiding. As I mentioned earlier, this is a bad thing.
Further, is it possible for others to know whether you have this status effect or not? If yes, you've created a newbie killer where new players go on their first raid and get blown all the way across the map on their first outing. I don't know about you, but I'd quit if I faced that kind of frustration after the planning and coordination it takes to raid. Who wants to play a game where your planning and hard work can be ended instantly by a single character? How many other "gotcha" traps could there be lying in wait? If no, then after facing a few raids of blowing your AP and MP on people who have protection from the skill anyway, people will stop using the skill. In this case you've ended up creating a trap option that seems good but in actuality is totally useless; just the kind of thing you don't want in a game where you have to make permanent, unchangeable decisions about a character you'll be playing for months. Neither of these is desirable, neither ends up adding anything meaningful to the game.
I'm not trying to mock you or belittle your work. I'm saying the logical chain of events which follows these skills is predictable, harmful, and unnecessary. Once again I ask, what are these skills supposed to add to the game experience? I've yet to receive a response to this, and considering this is a question that should have been asked back in the planning stages it makes me wonder I should have received an immediate response.
Has this actually happened? Has anyone actually used the skill yet? Or has anyone actually successfully defended a SH using only this skill?
I think the skill should have time to be tested before people start complaining about it being overpowered. The skill is not guaranteed to hit and it requires some one to be active to use it and raiders will probably kill the archons first.
If the skill has become an unstoppable defense then it should be removed/nerfed but I haven't seen that happen.
I could see it causing several problems though. It could really stop an evil faction from moving in to elysium as the raiders could just banish everyone and take the flag without fighting. It would also reduce emoting more than it already is as people will have to worry about being dead in an instant and may decide to simply kill things rather than risk losing experience.
If balancing it becomes necessary to balance it Word shouldn't work in an opponents SH since if you're banishing them to where they came from they're already there or it should have an increased offensive cost. The skill might be given a cooldown so it can't be spammed massively until mp reaches 0. This skill could also give a status effect and when the effect runs out then you're banished so people can get in a few blows or if the archon needs to banish them they have to hit them a few times.
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