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Not fussed about throwing Pickup Trucks but would like to kill people with thrown Portable Toilets
On a more general note I'm keeping an open mind on B4. Less second guessing at this early stage, more destructive playtesting _________________ Cheers,
Joined: Aug 15, 2010 Posts: 3955 Location: Gehenna (Earth Branch)
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:13 pm Post subject:
SkullFace wrote:
Not fussed about throwing Pickup Trucks but would like to kill people with thrown Portable Toilets
On a more general note I'm keeping an open mind on B4. Less second guessing at this early stage, more destructive playtesting
You attack Skullface with your Portable Toilet and hit for 5 points of impact damage. As you do, some sort of fluid spills out from within, dealing an additional 10 points of sewage damage. This was enough to make him wish he was dead! _________________
"Oh, sorry, thought I was in a Vault of Enlightenment, not someone's booze cabinet." -Kharn
Joined: Jan 19, 2010 Posts: 2278 Location: Charlotte's Bakery University
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:40 pm Post subject:
Shadok wrote:
SkullFace wrote:
Not fussed about throwing Pickup Trucks but would like to kill people with thrown Portable Toilets
On a more general note I'm keeping an open mind on B4. Less second guessing at this early stage, more destructive playtesting
You attack Skullface with your Portable Toilet and hit for 5 points of impact damage. As you do, some sort of fluid spills out from within, dealing an additional 10 points of sewage damage. This was enough to make him wish he was dead!
I'm just astounded that everyone seems to understand this concept when it comes to Tanks and Hunters, but then doesn't get it here. A lot of people sound like they believe that if you intend to become a petmaster, you're not allowed to do anything. I mean, someone can go off and say it's dull and boring to have to start at level 1 instead of starting at the endgame, but the same could arguably be said for any game with a progression system. Of course the late-game stuff is going to be more powerful and interesting than the early game stuff.
This is all true, but Petmasters are unique in that their end-game skills are entirely divergent from their early-game ones.
Tanks don't become walls until T3, but they do get some valuable toughness in T2 - Blood Taste, Divine Armor, Super Reflexes, etc. They can't tackle a petwall, but they can deal with wandering monsters or targets with auras. And crucially, both their T2 and T3 skillsets hinge significantly around T1 combat trees. Sure, you could build a Seraph without one, but 7 of your T3 skills build on that competence; you're locking yourself out of a huge chunk of your class by skipping that. And since aura-tanking doesn't consume AP, you're basically leaving money on the table without a weapon. Thus, you start out swinging your sword like a wiener Mortal, power up a fair bit in T2, and become legit deadly in T3. There's a logical progression.
Likewise for Hunters. Sure, they don't have their super awesome hunter-specific skills until T3, but you can look at T3 and extrapolate which T1 and T2 skills will get you there, and you become gradually more effective at killing things as you go.
On the Spellcaster side, Warmages are an interesting case in part because of the B4 changes. You don't get the big guns until T3, but those big guns are add-ons to your T2 spells and skills. T1 has a bit of a disconnect since (prior to the B4 changes described here), there almost no Mortal skills will directly contribute to making you a better Wizard or whatever. But it's at least a short enough detour to get past with a small investment like Search, First Aid, or Engineering.
What makes Petmasters unique is not that they can't "do" anything, it's that there's a near-total disconnect between tiers. When you ask "What would make me a better Wyrm Master?" there are very few non-WM skills involved. Mundane combat trees won't see any boost in T2 and only get an innate weapon at T3 - this is not a core element of your class. Crafting trees work, but we just established that you don't need a weapon, and none of your T2 or T3 skills build on crafting. Even First Aid gets a few strikes against it - Lightspeakers will see Aethersprites eventually take over some of its utility, and WMs are often surrounded by allies who can't be healed.
And unlike with Warmages, Petmasters don't have much synergy in their T2 skills, either. You don't really want to invest in spellcasting, since T3 gives you no additional boosts to it and MP spent on spells will almost always be less efficient than MP spent on pets. Alchemy is an option, but again, it consumes MP, which is already your primary constraint.
The closest analogue would be Enchanters, but even they have some more coherence to them. T1 crafting skills don't see any direct boosts in T2 but make life easier when you do actually start enchanting. (And Conduits specifically see them improve further.) T2 introduces Alchemy, which is both another reason for factionmates to get used to trading with you AND enables you to create the very fuel that Enchant Item requires. On top of that, you spend T2 learning spells mostly for enchanting purposes, but you do get to see some offense improvement as a result.
The "problem" with Petmasters isn't that they're bad (they aren't) or that they don't become Most Rad until T3 (nobody does). It's just that, if I could create a level 20 character from thin air, I would feel comfortable taking Sense Magic, TLL, and my T2 MP skill, then completely throwing away the remaining T1/T2 CP. Because anything else, while occasionally useful, is ultimately vestigial to my character's core function and tools. Unlike other archetypes, you aren't doing one thing or two things and gradually getting better at them as you level up. Instead, you're doing one thing, then a totally different thing, and finally the thing that you actually wanted to do.
And unlike with Warmages, Petmasters don't have much synergy in their T2 skills, either. You don't really want to invest in spellcasting, since T3 gives you no additional boosts to it and MP spent on spells will almost always be less efficient than MP spent on pets.
This was actually an issue we discussed at some length, and part of the reason why we increased the mana cap and made casting spells less likely to run you out of MP.
What makes Petmasters unique is not that they can't "do" anything, it's that there's a near-total disconnect between tiers. When you ask "What would make me a better Wyrm Master?" there are very few non-WM skills involved. Mundane combat trees won't see any boost in T2 and only get an innate weapon at T3 - this is not a core element of your class. Crafting trees work, but we just established that you don't need a weapon, and none of your T2 or T3 skills build on crafting. Even First Aid gets a few strikes against it - Lightspeakers will see Aethersprites eventually take over some of its utility, and WMs are often surrounded by allies who can't be healed.
Now, see, that was the question I presented.
In my case, I certainly did find T1 skills which applied to life as a petmaster. One character was going to burn MP to summon and then attack with their AP, and so spent Mortal CP in buying the combat trees. One character was a healer/mage, and so spent Mortal CP on Surgery and the Search/Sense Magic skills.
But that's certainly not everyone's experience. Indeed, I think I'm just not familiar with what Petmasters, especially NC3.5 Petmasters who face decay, do with their time. Is it really just summon a pet, spend AP to recover MP, and summon more pets? I'm just not familiar with that playstyle.
I would note that all T2 classes have a way to store up MP in Nexus Clash 4. Shepards have Mala Beads (and Holier Than Thou, if going that route), Sorcerers have Mana Shard, and Defilers have Soul Vampire. So each T2 class does have a method of stocking up on MP-regain items, if they are looking forward to just dumping a large amount of MP into summoning a lot of pets.
Also keep in mind that pets in 4.0 will be working very differently. We are still unsettled on any specifics and I'm not comfortable going into more detail since we are still weighing the pros and cons of, like, 3 different systems. I'd rather not go and get someone all excited about 1 system only to see us go a different route. _________________
The "problem" with Petmasters isn't that they're bad (they aren't) or that they don't become Most Rad until T3 (nobody does). It's just that, if I could create a level 20 character from thin air, I would feel comfortable taking Sense Magic, TLL, and my T2 MP skill, then completely throwing away the remaining T1/T2 CP. Because anything else, while occasionally useful, is ultimately vestigial to my character's core function and tools. Unlike other archetypes, you aren't doing one thing or two things and gradually getting better at them as you level up. Instead, you're doing one thing, then a totally different thing, and finally the thing that you actually wanted to do.
This is the point, and the mistake in design (in my oppinion).
But after a "be told / last word" attitude thrown down on me this debate / topic, it is pointless to expect anything else than the same design. That's just logic. T3 pets only!
20 unenjoyable "Character" levels of doing what I have already done for my badge grind in a previous breath...
PLus skills I will have to waste CP on just to level, when really all I want is my Pet, instead of not getting to use the "CLASS TRAITS" of my class until T3, unlike every other class...
While the pariahs are out enjoying their explosive mayhem and claw fighting, what does the T2 PM get to enjoy? Tedium?
Teksura wrote:
Also keep in mind that pets in 4.0 will be working very differently. We are still unsettled on any specifics and I'm not comfortable going into more detail since we are still weighing the pros and cons of, like, 3 different systems. I'd rather not go and get someone all excited about 1 system only to see us go a different route.
This is irrelevant. How Pets work matters not to the problem highlighted. The one Merlin put so elegantly in the quote above.
NUff Said. _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
There's a huge difference with 'synergy for your t3 function or preparation to that role' and pushing a PET for t2. The last one is just being stubborn while the first one can open a lot of things for a potential t2 petmaster.
There's a huge difference with 'synergy for your t3 function or preparation to that role' and pushing a PET for t2. The last one is just being stubborn while the first one can open a lot of things for a potential t2 petmaster.
I Disagree, is it stubborn to want a class to function based off the "Class Role"....
Pretty much you can wrap most t1 / t2 pm choices down to 4 must have skills. Then the tedius skill to do your xp grind with (as you do not have your class role defined until T3) Until then you are just going through a tedius grind to get what you wanted to play the class for.
Why waste CP on a weapon type set of skills "H2H combat tree" as an example, to level up 20 levels, when at level 30, it is very likely you will never swing your fist again when you have your pet/s.
Like merlin and myself said, there are 4 skills that offer PM synergy currantly and they offer little in the low level grind to T3.
Search
Sense magic
Tap Leyline
Sorcerers Might
What other skills are needed for PM synergy than these skills?
It is hardly a 20 level rewarding progression. Unlike hunter and tank classes that get drip fed, gradualy getting better at their role over the level climb.
Building synergy means nothing if it takes CP away from the role (Summoning pets) and if the choice is limited (like now, above four skills). I buy those skills, synergy sorted for PM t3. Now what do I do for the remaining 14 levels? _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Last edited by RaelCleap on Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Oct 12, 2015 Posts: 1085 Location: The United States of America
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:58 pm Post subject:
Rael, the repeated talk about the same mechanic is probably going to make people go mad at this point. My suggestion is to keep the duscussion to your own out of the way thread so people can choose to discuss or not. I'm frankly a bit tired of threads being hijacked and I can't be alone.
And I have more patience with people than I pribably should. _________________ 8:17 PM - BlackHeartKabal: HOW IS 42 KILLS AN A
8:17 PM - BlackHeartKabal: FOURTY TWO
8:17 PM - BlackHeartKabal: FOURTY TWOOOO
8:17 PM - BlackHeartKabal: IS ONLY AN A
8:17 PM - BlackHeartKabal: HOW DO YOU GET AN S ON LEBLANC
Then maybe one of the Dev's should give a good reason why not other than vague shut downs, with no other reasoning than "Just Cuz!"
...or the last word BS.
I read what Merlin had to say and thought, yup I am not the only one that thinks this...
But sure, I'll F'off for peoples sanity. Like logic / reason of outsider opinion is listened to here anyway... _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Joined: Aug 15, 2010 Posts: 3955 Location: Gehenna (Earth Branch)
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:41 am Post subject:
Raelcleap we have repeatedly informed you both in-thread and out of thread why your idea is both impractical and non-synergous with the game. Trying to spam out the same stuff we already explained to not work again and again just weakens what points you have on the matter. Then claiming that you'd not been informed of the stuff we've repeatedly informed you of just puts the nail in the coffin. Do NOT go around writing libel. _________________
"Oh, sorry, thought I was in a Vault of Enlightenment, not someone's booze cabinet." -Kharn
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