Don't have an account yet? You can create one. Registered players can create up to three free characters to battle, team up with your friends and explore the worlds of the Nexus! To create a character once you have registered, click on Game Map at the top of the page.
Nexus Clash :: View topic - Setting up FAKs to set places/stockpile
Joined: Dec 22, 2018 Posts: 33 Location: Somewhere in the mountains of Ely..
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:20 am Post subject: Setting up FAKs to set places/stockpile
As the mechanic is right now, dropping FAKs causes them to disappear next tick. I would be nice to be able to set them up like potions and some food items, just not be able to shoot them. _________________ "If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving isn't for you.." - Steven Wright
Notorious RBG - 11777 | no one - 11820 | Trendigo - 11869 | Dot - 11879 | Scarah - 11883 (released) | Lucy - 11939 | Ate - 12179 | Miss Ruby Mae - 12324 | Seker - 12365
s'just targetables/weapons that stick around i think, when the non-delete drop was added i kind of wanted the expiration timer to be a matter of days instead of minutes, just to see what it'd be like kkkku
still think would be neat to see, but do not think many random exceptions'll be made in curr state
Joined: Dec 22, 2018 Posts: 33 Location: Somewhere in the mountains of Ely..
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:46 am Post subject:
Yes, even if it was just days! That would be neat. I understand what you mean, though. _________________ "If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving isn't for you.." - Steven Wright
Notorious RBG - 11777 | no one - 11820 | Trendigo - 11869 | Dot - 11879 | Scarah - 11883 (released) | Lucy - 11939 | Ate - 12179 | Miss Ruby Mae - 12324 | Seker - 12365
Thing for me is Pink Succ AK(incorrectly)A Thonk said that they're planning to make giving items to people cost 0 AP.
I'd be dead-on such a thing if it (perhaps with a small renown cost associated, such as having a 'Set of Bookshelves' or a 'Supplies Cupboard') basically let you drop all the items that are useful to new characters on the floor indefinitely-ish, for them to collect when needed. So not just FAKs, but Books and that would be great for this system.
However, if giving's reduced to 0 AP, then that kinda fulfills the same purpose, being more easily able to help-out the clan childers. That said, I'd like it if the dropping -> deleted time was longer in general, although full days might give opportunities for some questionable things.
Yeah, having give cost AP just basically makes it less-efficient to interact and help-out new players and doesn't affect the old farts much at all. I'm glad it's getting changed.
Joined: Jul 05, 2011 Posts: 609 Location: Behind you
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:17 am Post subject:
No.. Just no thanks. It seems to me the game mechanics have already shifted enough to easy mode this is just not required. As far as I'm concerned we've already gone too far down this slippery slope. e.g.- picking items up no longer costing AP. In addition to the plethora of changes made in past patches to "make it easier on new players". Before long we're just going to be starting with level 30 characters and 720 CP. _________________ DS Vengence (10321)|Exar Kun (9839)|Odysseus (6385)|Sac II (3599)|Secundus Nulli (3900)|Spécïâl Chàrăcŧẽr (6153)|Darth Bane (5067)|The occasional shadow (4078)|Ventis Secundus (3858)
Imagine thinking that picking-up items not costing AP made the game go 'easymode', ahahaha, what a bloody craic.
I, too, much preferred throwing being complete rubbish for no readily apparent reason.
The ironic fact outside of throwing is that drop/pick-up changes and giving changes are both in the exact same boat - they do benefit new players, and in particular make it easier for veteran players to use their AP and knowledge to help-out new players, but they benefit co-ordinated play and efficient raid prep much more.
Just for one example, it makes it much simpler to organise someone else spending their AP to take needed supplies out of the safe and give them to your char so you're outfitted and at cap AP rather than tanking yours before the raid. You can get stacks of components and items to the person needing without an AP tax on you, them or both as soon as they log-on without needing to have your playtime line-up.
You can also use it to effectively have a bigger inventory size whenever you need for free (without having to be like, I'm dropping all of these things @someone, pick them up I'll be back), so long as you're passing items to someone you know can pass you back when needed. This helps wearing armour which could be optimal for your class (but is damned heavy) offline too, if you can be bothered. Before that was mostly limited to dropping and making sure to have your own business done before the next AP tick, which can be restrictive. All of this allows small raid parties to be even more effective by, essentially, getting the people who won't/can't be there to pick-up the slack the night before.
If things like this aren't crossing your minds, it's not impossible you're the ones who aren't getting the mechanics you're miffed over, as bulgingly-brainedly as you might've been playing for the last decade. c:
Imagine thinking that picking-up items not costing AP made the game go 'easymode', ahahaha, what a bloody craic.
Sac stated "In addition to the plethora of changes made in past patches to "make it easier on new players"." Not simply 0AP pickups on their own.
Alyss wrote:
I, too, much preferred throwing being complete rubbish for no readily apparent reason.
How about because they are a ranged weapon with no ammunition requirement, other than having to pick them up each time. And yes I am aware that this is a major issue in real time combat, but against a sleeping person with an close combat aura, they are a decent option. How about because not all skills should be equal, there is fun and realism in thrown weapons being weaker in some circumstances and stronger in others (they are perfect for target shooting). Also thrown weapons actually suck in real life.
Alyss wrote:
The ironic fact outside of throwing is that drop/pick-up changes and giving changes are both in the exact same boat - they do benefit new players, and in particular make it easier for veteran players to use their AP and knowledge to help-out new players, but they benefit co-ordinated play and efficient raid prep much more.
True
Alyss wrote:
Just for one example, it makes it much simpler to organise someone else spending their AP to take needed supplies out of the safe and give them to your char so you're outfitted and at cap AP rather than tanking yours before the raid. You can get stacks of components and items to the person needing without an AP tax on you, them or both as soon as they log-on without needing to have your playtime line-up.
Also true, but I would argue that the AP cost constitutes a valid limiter to how much said characters can and should be able to help.
Alyss wrote:
You can also use it to effectively have a bigger inventory size whenever you need for free (without having to be like, I'm dropping all of these things @someone, pick them up I'll be back), so long as you're passing items to someone you know can pass you back when needed. This helps wearing armour which could be optimal for your class (but is damned heavy) offline too, if you can be bothered. Before that was mostly limited to dropping and making sure to have your own business done before the next AP tick, which can be restrictive. All of this allows small raid parties to be even more effective by, essentially, getting the people who won't/can't be there to pick-up the slack the night before.
So you want a free increase to inventory size? Inventory limits are there for a good reason, game balance. Yes I love to see people rewarded for innovative ways to get around such things as these, but at what point does it just become too easy?
Alyss wrote:
If things like this aren't crossing your minds, it's not impossible you're the ones who aren't getting the mechanics you're miffed over, as bulgingly-brainedly as you might've been playing for the last decade. c:
Its not impossible that in the short time you have been playing (admittedly I am assuming here from the tone and number of your posts, apologies if I assume incorrectly), that you have not developed a balanced and experienced viewpoint.
AP is THE limiter for this game. Anything which increases AP (or removes AP costs) needs to be very carefully considered before being modified. It is especially vulnerable to the power creep that happens if you balance a game using purely buffs. This entire conversation is a result of removing the AP cost for dropping items.
-> dropping doesn't cost AP, so neither should picking up
-> picking up doesn't cost AP, so why should I have to actually press a button
-> ranged weapons are now automatically picked up so everyone effectively gets magically returning weapons
Yes, that is intended as an unrealistic example to illustrate power creep.
Another example:
A smallish raid team load up on amphets and magic recovery pots. They have one AoE capable raider.
The other raiders feed the AoEer pills and pots FOR FREE, allowing a unbalanced amount of AoE attacks that allow them to clear out a far larger SH than they were previously capable of. Of course this is possible to a certain extent already, but at least now the other characters spend AP to simulate the effort. In this example all the other raiders would still have all the AP they would have spent giving amps and pots, to also actively attack.
Is this actually a bad thing you wonder. Some of us "old farts" remember a single spellcaster (Death aka Hungerer if I recall correctly) clearing an entire large faction by himself using amps and transcribed Death Cloud scrolls, gaining something like 3 levels (27 to 30) in the process. Scrolls and AoE were very quickly nerfed after this.
Not a direct comparison, but close enough to illustrate how removing the AP cost for actions can have a unanticipated and overpowered result.
Alyss wrote:
Yeah, having give cost AP just basically makes it less-efficient to interact and help-out new players and doesn't affect the old farts much at all. I'm glad it's getting changed.
I think I have given a good example above of how this unbalances high level characters power far more than new characters.
Also as a side note, with all due respect, you may get more positive responses here if you showed a little more respect for the "old farts" who have been playing this game or its predecessor for over 12 years now, and may just possibly have the experience to know what they are talking about.
I am in no way disparaging or disregarding your point of view based purely on perceived age or experience with this game, you have clearly thought this situation through from your perspective, merely stating that the insulting language doesn't help. _________________ Bob Ross | Feral | 3628 - Catvom | Feral | 3627 - Haldos Jnr. | RRF | 3659 - MonkeyDawg | PoR | 3631 - A Speciality Priest of Tempus | Lawful Good | 4489
Retribution | Eternals | 9134 - Minsc | Scales of Namm the Vigilant | 9008
Joined: Jul 05, 2011 Posts: 609 Location: Behind you
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:43 pm Post subject:
Since we no longer need civility in this thread.... Here's another example of a change made to make it 'easier' for everyone, I ran into today (on a feral character).
Quote:
You cannot repair the door of another faction's stronghold!
Some people actually like a challenge and the more things become a gift or speedbumps are flattened out, the more spark is lost from the game. We are supposed to be playing a murder simulator, in a rough, hard to survive world, aren't we?
The 0 AP to pick items up is entirely against the principles of any browser game I've played. To drop things? Sure. But not pickup. The fact is nobody complains because it makes it easier for everyone (and the opinion that anything should remain more difficult than an alternative is usually met with opposition by the masses). This doesn't mean it's right and it's only a matter of time until someone finds a way to exploit it, if they haven't already.
Catvom's slippery slope example of AP changes is my point. We're now having examples of AP mechanic changes which affect the very nature/core of some classes. _________________ DS Vengence (10321)|Exar Kun (9839)|Odysseus (6385)|Sac II (3599)|Secundus Nulli (3900)|Spécïâl Chàrăcŧẽr (6153)|Darth Bane (5067)|The occasional shadow (4078)|Ventis Secundus (3858)
Firstly, I'd like to say just for clarity that 'old farts' genuinely wasn't meant to be an insulting term in any way, I just meant it in a 'prince or pauper' sort of sense. I've also used joking terms to refer to newer players like myself such as 'new fish' often before. I'm sorry it went down that way.
That said, I have to stand by most other things, and I think it's a bit blind of any of you to pearl-clutch over 'civility' when you were the first to bring-up 'deluded, entitled new players' and make silly false equivalencies.
If we're going to talk delusion and entitlement, being blunt, there's the entitled minority of veteran players who want a nigh-permanent leg-up over anyone getting into game not just for recent past accomplishments, but entire years past; e.g the current badge system. This is deluded because a gerontocratic MUD eventually becomes a dead MUD. For example, although Urbandead does have many design flaws IMO, the fact you need to re-supply extremely frequently and how effective you can be on a basic level after just a few levels in the game mostly favours game knowledge and co-ordination, not time played. Shartak's resource and inventory system on the other hand allowed most of the long-time players to stockpile enough of a weapon that is much better than any other generic weapon to last the rest of their character lifetimes, and while I rep the game its stats speak for themselves.
I may not have years of thorough history (a bit of dabbling aside) with past iterations of Nexus Clash and NW, however, like pretty much everyone interested in MUDs still I have a long history with MUDs. I'm genuinely not trying to behave in an attacking manner and I think my tone was a bit aggro. However, I think you strongly underestimate three things which make changes such as these pretty unobjectionable.
-1) Attracting new or newly-returning players either from the net in general or the wider MUD community is very important to the future of the game.
-2) The ability you CAN optimise your characters and your actions in Nexus Clash makes the MUD extremely skill-expressive both individually and in co-ordinated play. Even though this makes Clash faster-paced than a lot of other MUDs this is an attractive feature to a lot of MUD migrants.
-3) As you all stated and I fully agree with, it is already possible for optimised and heavily pre-prepared small groups to take-out the top factions. Even post-nerfs, if you're willing to spend a generous handful of enchanted grenades on a raid, you cannot lose (so long as you can tank them), for an extreme example. If it's abusive, this abuse is already an option - how repeatable it is is a different thing entirely.
For example on 3), your example of an imbalanced amount of AoE attacks requires a lot of pre-preparation, those resources don't come for free (i.e - without prior AP investment) even though they can enable extreme feats. It's more relevant to say if anything that characters can donate their AP for a good AoE attacker like Holy Champion to go off by clearing the wards and fortifications for them, but no-one would say this is a problematic mechanic.
I'm not trying to throw shade at the time you've spent, without it the game'd be less likely to be in the good state it's in; I'm not trying to say your preferred way of playing the game isn't a good one, but I think Clash appeals (and should appeal) to MUD players for a large variety of reasons.
I don't think we should shame the game or the developmental direction for being one in which for the most part and with listening to good players; new entrants can start putting in good work within a month of picking-up the game, while still having a large amount of things to learn beyond that. This is in my opinion a really strong feature of Clash and; whilst absolutely, AP is the limiter for the game - devoting more player AP to maintenance and banal actions, apart from altering balance also stymies the pace of the game.
The game is already fast-paced for a traditional MUD, but frequently because of lack of information and lack of options new players don't get to share in that fast pace, which leads to them not sticking-around more often. Like it or not, the game has to do its best to keep them on board - there's been good changes outside of mechanics too, like the Nexal Guidebook and the new Tanking page on the Wiki.
The giving AP change would not enable anything which isn't possible with more co-ordination already, it's a change which does allow new players to share in a quicker pace of progression. The thing is, if the problem is that the pace of action is too fast for equipped and knowledgeable chars, that boat evidently sailed a long time ago.
I'll give you that I wasn't doing enough to consider your perspective (I thought the throwing thing was a joke at the time), but genuinely, try to consider as well that a lot of players do like the more rapid and complex experience relative to pretty much every MUD still out there. And if the rapid experience is the problem, this doesn't change it on the bottom line.
Joined: Jan 19, 2010 Posts: 2278 Location: Charlotte's Bakery University
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:35 pm Post subject:
Since this has turned fully into a discussion about development direction, it merits a developer response. I will add with regards to the original suggestion that it is very easy for us to add or remove items from the list of items cleared on AP ticks if they are standing around on the ground.
There are many points that have been made in this thread and I will try to address the most significant ones albeit in no particular order.
Quote:
The 0 AP to pick items up is entirely against the principles of any browser game I've played. To drop things? Sure. But not pickup. The fact is nobody complains because it makes it easier for everyone (and the opinion that anything should remain more difficult than an alternative is usually met with opposition by the masses). This doesn't mean it's right and it's only a matter of time until someone finds a way to exploit it, if they haven't already.
Catvom's slippery slope example of AP changes is my point. We're now having examples of AP mechanic changes which affect the very nature/core of some classes.
Quote:
As far as I'm concerned we've already gone too far down this slippery slope. e.g.- picking items up no longer costing AP.
The 0 AP cost to pick up items is not a recent change. As far as I am aware from dev archives, changelogs and looking through the earliest record of our code that I could find, if this was ever more than 0 AP it must have been before I joined the dev team five years ago.
Quote:
Quote:
Alyss wrote:
I, too, much preferred throwing being complete rubbish for no readily apparent reason.
How about because they are a ranged weapon with no ammunition requirement, other than having to pick them up each time. And yes I am aware that this is a major issue in real time combat, but against a sleeping person with an close combat aura, they are a decent option. How about because not all skills should be equal, there is fun and realism in thrown weapons being weaker in some circumstances and stronger in others (they are perfect for target shooting). Also thrown weapons actually suck in real life.
Throwing weapons aren't very realistic, not least because yes, they suck in real life for nearly everyone. One of the issues we have balancing them is that some poor decisions made by people no longer on the dev team flooded the game with a specific, overpowered thrown weapon that every single thrown user now relies on, and we can't just take it out without screwing them all.
This makes the broader throwing reform that we want to do into a breath-change thing.
Quote:
AP is THE limiter for this game. Anything which increases AP (or removes AP costs) needs to be very carefully considered before being modified. It is especially vulnerable to the power creep that happens if you balance a game using purely buffs. This entire conversation is a result of removing the AP cost for dropping items.
-> dropping doesn't cost AP, so neither should picking up
-> picking up doesn't cost AP, so why should I have to actually press a button
-> ranged weapons are now automatically picked up so everyone effectively gets magically returning weapons
The real recent change here that actually matters is the recent change that makes dropped items pile up on the ground where they can then be retrieved, instead of magically disappearing forever.
This change was made to address one of the most persistent, common, and aggravating quality-of-life issues in the game - the fact that it was possible to drop and lose valued items forever in a single misclick. This goes beyond overall easiness or hardness of the game - everyone hated high-consequence misclicks.
As a development team, we were able to protect people from other high-consequence misclicks (quitting your faction when you wanted to see the roster, revoking your stronghold when you wanted to take something from the safe, joining a guild when you wanted to go through a door...) via confirmation buttons. But we can't ask people to click through confirmation buttons every time they want to drop something, since that would make searching into a tedious chore. So we made dropped stuff pile up on the ground, as it realistically would, with an additional feature that clears most stuff out every tick.
Experimenting players put two and two together and realized that since dropping items and picking them up has always cost 0 AP it was now possible to exploit the fact that any item can now be picked up to pass items to other players. Yes, it could be argued that this effectively removes an AP cost, thus making the game easier. At this point, our options as a dev team are as follows:
A) Add a new, previously nonexistant AP cost to dropping items.
B) Add a new, previously nonexistant AP cost to picking up items.
C) Reverse our decision to allow dropped items to pile up on the ground, thus once again putting everyone at risk of losing their items forever with one fumbled click.
D) Accept that giving items now costs zero AP for the meta-connected part of the playerbase who hang out on Discord in real time and accept that these players now have a huge new advantage that isn't readily apparent to most players. This is not necessarily a question of "new vs veteran" players - some of our newest players are super-organized, while some of our oldest and most devoted veterans have life circumstances that don't permit them to use chat apps regularly or reliably.
E) Accept that giving items now costs zero AP for the meta-connected part of the playerbase who hang out on Discord in real time, and extend these savings to all players.
I'd be glad to spell out why A-D are problematic in more depth, but in a pending patch change, we're going with E).
Quote:
That said, I have to stand by most other things, and I think it's a bit blind of any of you to pearl-clutch over 'civility' when you were the first to bring-up 'deluded, entitled new players' and make silly false equivalencies.
Quote:
-1) Attracting new or newly-returning players either from the net in general or the wider MUD community is very important to the future of the game.
Carilgar, not Sac, used the deluded entitled line. I don't believe that's an accurate thing to say here, for what it's worth. Nor is pearl-clutching - the only truly pearl-clutching players quit the game a while ago.
Growing the game population is of paramount importance to the game. This is more a matter of metagame friendliness and support (which the community is good at, and which it's a lot better at than two years ago) than specific acts of mechanics optimization.
I don't think people quit because they took too long to get to Tier 3 or because the Tier 3 class they picked wasn't the best or because they made a few non-optimal skill choices. People quit because it's hard to get into the game, necessary information is hard to get to and it's easy to get isolated from the meta. All of those things have gotten much better in the last two years and from what I've seen a much higher percentage of real new players stick around than they did in in (for instance) 2016. However, we're also getting fewer people who show up because of a lack of offsite visibility and a general decline in the popularity of the type of game that this is.
Probably the biggest issue is a lack of offsite promotion bringing people here, and any ideas from anyone else in this thread for how and where to do that would be welcome. We'll probably always be a fairly obscure game relative to some things, but we could be quite a bit less obscure than we are.
Quote:
Since we no longer need civility in this thread.... Here's another example of a change made to make it 'easier' for everyone, I ran into today (on a feral character).
Quote:
Quote:
You cannot repair the door of another faction's stronghold!
Some people actually like a challenge and the more things become a gift or speedbumps are flattened out, the more spark is lost from the game. We are supposed to be playing a murder simulator, in a rough, hard to survive world, aren't we?
The change to faction door repairing was to block a meta nuisance - door spam is really annoying, and it's easy to troll a faction with it, but there's almost never a game-mechanics-gain reason to do it. If someone wants to screw with a faction, they should start or join a rival faction and war them. Little obscure ways to sabotage a faction without it being possible to retaliate aren't a desirable thing to have in the game.
Going forward, we'd like to see less of the 'spark' of the game come from exploiting little broken obscure quirks left over from a time when it was abandoned, and more of the 'spark' of the game come from adding more mechanics and more depth to existing mechanics that fit the setting of the game.
Quote:
We're now having examples of AP mechanic changes which affect the very nature/core of some classes.
We exist in a state of Perpetual Beta and all classes are open to change to address imbalance or introduce new features and depth. Doom Howlers being good tanks now is a good example of this, as is petmaster passive regeneration. If changes introduce serious problems we can always change them back.
Kandarin, thanks for the big dev response, that cleared up some stuff for me. I don't think I ever realised that picking items up had changed to 0ap action.
Yeah well, with that in mind it makes no sense for giving an item to cost ap anymore. I still don't particular like the whole situation, but I can see the reasons for it, and I don't have a better solution
Also then we need to either remove the target setup button, or make it 0ap as well
Alyss, thanks for the response, and apologies that I took your joke comments more seriously than they were intended. Probably just a result of not knowing you longer. IE Carilgar has been around forever, and from the tone of previous posts of his, I assumed his comment about deluded new players was tongue in cheek. I will bear this in mind in the future. And by the way, although I may not agree with some of your ideas, I am happy that we have someone new who is willing to put the time in to make considered suggestions. The game does need it So welcome.
I'll leave further debate about the various other things this thread has brought up for another time/thread and just respond finally to the OP
I have nothing against letting FAKs sit on the floor for a longer period of time. There would def have to be a limit of some kind as I worry about bored players using characters to just search for and dump FAKs making all the Hospital/Pharmacy interiors massive piles of medical supplies that anyone can just pickup. Kinda spoils the apocalypse vibe _________________ Bob Ross | Feral | 3628 - Catvom | Feral | 3627 - Haldos Jnr. | RRF | 3659 - MonkeyDawg | PoR | 3631 - A Speciality Priest of Tempus | Lawful Good | 4489
Retribution | Eternals | 9134 - Minsc | Scales of Namm the Vigilant | 9008
Joined: Dec 22, 2018 Posts: 33 Location: Somewhere in the mountains of Ely..
Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:55 pm Post subject:
catvom wrote:
I'll leave further debate about the various other things this thread has brought up for another time/thread and just respond finally to the OP
I have nothing against letting FAKs sit on the floor for a longer period of time. There would def have to be a limit of some kind as I worry about bored players using characters to just search for and dump FAKs making all the Hospital/Pharmacy interiors massive piles of medical supplies that anyone can just pickup. Kinda spoils the apocalypse vibe
Thanks, Catvom!! Things kinda went into left field from the original topic, but conversation is always great!
I do worry about that too, but I think they should maybe be given a time limit? Like 24/36 hours or something.
While I agree that huge stockpiles would spoil the apocalypse vibe, I do think that small stockpiles isn't out of that realm.. Certain factions or parties may want to stockpile FAKs different places for different reasons. Doesn't seem too far fetched.
Anyway, thank you for replying to my original post and all the discussion in between. _________________ "If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving isn't for you.." - Steven Wright
Notorious RBG - 11777 | no one - 11820 | Trendigo - 11869 | Dot - 11879 | Scarah - 11883 (released) | Lucy - 11939 | Ate - 12179 | Miss Ruby Mae - 12324 | Seker - 12365
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
