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Nexus Clash :: View topic - Let's Talk: Class Features
I think teir 2 skills should be as generic as possible, but I'd say most of the teir 3 free skills are well chosen.
I'd say strong attack for all teir 2 combat classes and cast spell for all teir 2 magic classes as their free skills would be the best for everyone.
Explosive murder doesn't really suit 2/3rds of the combat teir 3 demons and strong attack is almost universally chosen.
Whilst nearly all magic user classes will have to take cast spell anyway as that's the point of picking that class. (in fact it feels a bit cheap that shepherds and defilers have to purchase theirs while sorcerors get theirs for free and have access to some amazing skills)
The problem with characterful free skills is that it places a pressure to incorporate that skill into your build. If we gave the free skill to a skill that is almost universally taken up it would removethat pressure and allow people to have more fun with their character builds.
Please don't forget support characters, who don't do anything offensive. There are few in comparison to the combat characters, but giving them a combat ability (including spellcasting) is just a slap in the face to those who choose to go that route.
Even support characters get allot of use out of spell casting. It's essential for enchanting. Pet masters might be one of the few that don't really need it, but there are support spells to.
Please don't forget support characters, who don't do anything offensive. There are few in comparison to the combat characters, but giving them a combat ability (including spellcasting) is just a slap in the face to those who choose to go that route.
Spellcraft is one of the few skills that is both fairly Combat & Support friendly; Enchanting, Glyphs, Glyph Erasure, Water Breathing (I mean, sure it sucks but still...), Reveal, Shadow Wrap, and it is one of the smallest and most reliable combat dips out there (buying a single auto-hit spell is the cheapest way for a Support character to have some offensive capability without a massive CP sacrifice, or at no additional CP cost at all casting from gems).
Perhaps this could be made more Support friendly if all (appropriate) Spells could be cast on any character, allowing a spell caster to cast buffs on allies (perhaps at greater cost for balancing reasons, or even through a new skill that's a child of Spellcraft). This would add the defensive and offensive buffs to the list of support skills.
I agree it is more combat friendly but there are ways of using it as Support. _________________ My Characters
The problem with characterful free skills is that it places a pressure to incorporate that skill into your build. If we gave the free skill to a skill that is almost universally taken up it would removethat pressure and allow people to have more fun with their character builds.
This. Something that is always taken; something universal to the character class, regardless of path.
I mostly do support characters, so combat skills are fairly useless to me. For example, my ferret is a conduit crafter / enchanter, so Code of Efficiency is fairly useful to him - but if he weren't a crafter, it would be damn useless. Next Breath, why not Cosmic Affinity, which any conduit, no matter what their path, would find useful? What sorcerer exit doesn't need all the MP they can grab?
Eternal Soldier: Way of Vim. Again - buh? Okay, plus 5AP allowance is nice, but I bet there's hardly a single ES who didn't grab Way of Earth and Way of Lightning right off the bat, so perhaps the freebie might better be one of those.
And, yes, I know that some of these things where apparently rushed when the last Breath was pushed out. But if we go with the philosophy of Free Skills that these are class-defining skills, then it seems that we want to make sure they're useful to all in the class. Something that is highly useful to some and useless to others just leaves things feeling unbalanced.
As an alternate suggestion: Make the Free Tier 3 skills all be travel skills. Yes, those who just sit and craft wouldn't use it as much, but most characters would get some use from it and it would level the field instead of having the wildly varying power level and usefulness of the current T3 freebies.
All free skills really should all be passives
Really really hate it when they add a new button or new drop down menu option
If the free skill is useful great but if its useless it shouldn't be cluttering up the interface
If you had free reign to design the class features any way you liked, what would they be like?
I would mirror it to when you start a new Mortal character. When you hit a new tier, you have to pick a skill from a list. What's on that list, whether it be all the parent skills for that class or a chosen few, could be up to the devs.
Getting a 'free' skill is what made me really feel like I entered a new tier or 'evolved'. I would continue to restrict CP to tiers as well. _________________ hi
Considering all classes have a role they are supposed to fulfil, I'm wondering if making the free skills immediately make a character decent at their role isn't another way of going.
There would be the potential people wouldn't want the skills, but then again if they are playing a character against role, then their skill choices are going to be fairly limited regardless.
Considering all classes have a role they are supposed to fulfil, I'm wondering if making the free skills immediately make a character decent at their role isn't another way of going.
There would be the potential people wouldn't want the skills, but then again if they are playing a character against role, then their skill choices are going to be fairly limited regardless.
This already happens for some tier 3, for example voidwalkers gain corner step, which is a really useful ability. The problem is some skills are only usefulfro certain builds. Therein lies the problem.
Joined: Mar 11, 2010 Posts: 90 Location: Georgia, USA
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:57 pm Post subject:
I would like to note that if you don't give all pariah's Explosive Murder that means that Mr. Shooty died in vain. Do you want that on your conscience?
I would like to note that if you don't give all pariah's Explosive Murder that means that Mr. Shooty died in vain. Do you want that on your conscience?
Now why does this make me think we should be giving all Mortals Advanced Thrown Weapons as a free skill?
Joined: Aug 15, 2010 Posts: 3955 Location: Gehenna (Earth Branch)
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:27 pm Post subject:
saulres wrote:
Paradox wrote:
I would like to note that if you don't give all pariah's Explosive Murder that means that Mr. Shooty died in vain. Do you want that on your conscience?
Now why does this make me think we should be giving all Mortals Advanced Thrown Weapons as a free skill?
Then Fred Dalliard's sacrifices would be in vain. He wanted everyone to WILLINGLY take up the skill. If we just GIVE the skill out, then his spirit would be defiled. _________________
"Oh, sorry, thought I was in a Vault of Enlightenment, not someone's booze cabinet." -Kharn
I like the idea of the free skill, and would prefer that they be kept. Style wise, I think they should be something that would generally be useful without actually being generic. What I mean is that I'd like the skill to be unique to the class, rather than something that shows up in multiple places (so, not strong attack or combat mastery or whatever). To use examples from classes I've played, I'd consider the Shepherd's Prayer and the Myrmidon's Critical Hit to be good free skills. The specific implementations could be tweaked. I wouldn't pay 20 CP for Critical Hit - it works out to an average of half a point of damage per attack if you do 20 points per swing, which is pretty lackluster compared to say, strong attack. But that's just a math issue; the concepts themselves are basically sound.
I'll also add that I think anti-synergies between the free skills and exit class skills should be avoided if possible. I'm specifically thinking of shield of faith and harbinger of war/conquest here. It's just disappointing to get something that is going to be obsolete later on. I understand on an intellectual level that having it there doesn't hurt the build, but it still feels bad, at least to me. I realize that was a hotfix that presumably wasn't the original intention when the classes were being developed (and I'm not arguing over whether the fix was a good idea), but I still wanted to call it out.
As far as specific T3 skills (and again sticking to classes I've actually played):
Way of Vim is functional, but kinda...boring, I guess. I mean, higher inventory and AP caps are cool, but they just aren't something I think about existing. It's also pretty low impact - the inventory bonus is only half the size of strength's. I would probably not actually pay 30CP to purchase this skill, but I guess it's nice to have.
Divine Vengeance is really powerful - I'd pay quite a bit more than 30CP for it, and I'd take it on every Archon build I can think of. That being said, the class would be basically nonfunctional without it, so maybe being stronger than average is okay?
Demon Tracker is pretty meh. It's good for eliminating a search area from consideration, but it's not helpful at helping to actually find people, at least in my experience. I keep trying to use it to triangulate people, and it really is not effective at that. I don't think there's anything in my current build I'd give up to get it if it weren't free. That could just be me though - it seems entirely plausible that I don't know how to use it properly.
I like the idea of the free skill, and would prefer that they be kept. Style wise, I think they should be something that would generally be useful without actually being generic. What I mean is that I'd like the skill to be unique to the class, rather than something that shows up in multiple places (so, not strong attack or combat mastery or whatever).
The thing here is that I believe T2 classes *need* to be generic in their free skill as you will often run into this issue otherwise:
Terrion wrote:
I'll also add that I think anti-synergies between the free skills and exit class skills should be avoided if possible. I'm specifically thinking of shield of faith and harbinger of war/conquest here.
Due to how diverse the T3 classes are, or even just non-synergies where you simply never use your T2 free skill with your T3 based build. Giving all the fighters Combat Mastery and all the Spellcasters Spellcraft not only avoids this but fits thematically to the role they should be fulfilling. _________________ My Characters
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