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Nexus Clash :: View topic - Imbalance of wisp form.
Or yanno, good mundane armour, so you survive the first tic of pet attack.
This means maximum normally 20 damage over all from a huge horde (20 in total for 1 damage each, if everyone of them hits).
Then you step outside and then decide to run or fight if your prepped enough.
Alright, lets maths this out. If we take 20 ghouls, since that's the typical lich pet, and you've said repeatedly your main is a lich.
Ghouls do 10 slashing at 60% to hit - so lets look at the best slashing soak mundane armour can get you. A leather cuirass or plate cuirass gives 4 soak average. Now, you generally want pristine armour, so we can add + 2 onto that. 6 slashing soak reduces the ghouls to 4 damage at 60% to hit.
So that's 20 attacks, at 60% to hit, for 4 damage each. 20*0.6*4 = 48 damage. So with the best mundane armour you can get, you can probably just survive one pet tick. If you're unlucky enough to not be on a fast enough connection* to get out in one tick? If you step inside just before the tick and it takes 10 seconds to escape? 96 damage. Most people won't survive that.
*Yes, people sometimes play on worse connections than you.
Edit: This isn't really to do with wisp form at all, so no complaints if it gets deleted or something.
"It's not fair (generally) to die completely defenseless" is a toothless argument, because that happens to almost everyone by design. But it's also not the relevant argument. Petmasters getting killed risk-free isn't bad because it's unfair, it's bad because this is the arena in which they're supposed to have an unfair advantage against everyone except tanks, and give up significant other benefits (such as the constant drain on their AP/MP) in exchange.
Joined: Jul 05, 2011 Posts: 609 Location: Behind you
Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:19 pm Post subject:
Look at it this way:
My Advocate (or any other class for that matter) got killed by a VW (or any other class for that matter) who killed me with impunity by using a ranged weapon to avoid my aura. Everyone should be given soak and an aura that works against melee and ranged so they at least have to work for a kill.
Can anyone see the problem with this?
You're taking a petmaster, who with not even a massive horde, can walk into a room with a dozen people in it, read a book for a couple of minutes, and come back to nothing but corpses. This guy's nemesis is the tank. However (if this proposal goes through) there are only a few classes who can do that. And even they need to prepare for it. And even then they might fail.
So the end result is that you're creating an Alpha class who has the best of both worlds. How does that achieve balance?
The fact is petmasters are not designed to be feral. They're designed to SM and be somewhere they can be healed to SM and summon more. Or to DH their factionmates for more pets. Or do whatever the hell Lightspeakers do (dunno never played one).
I'm really not biased towards Conduits, honestly. My WM has basically been feral since hitting T3. Same routine, plant some shitty tentacles, summon some shitty hounds, hide, watch the trickle of xp (if any) come in, get killed (usually by a glass cannon without even any soak), rinse, repeat. It's the shitty, dick-drag of levelling/being a petmaster. Sometimes you have to do the crappy job first before you get the power of being able to 2-man a good sized faction SH. _________________ DS Vengence (10321)|Exar Kun (9839)|Odysseus (6385)|Sac II (3599)|Secundus Nulli (3900)|Spécïâl Chàrăcŧẽr (6153)|Darth Bane (5067)|The occasional shadow (4078)|Ventis Secundus (3858)
My WM has basically been feral since hitting T3. Same routine, plant some shitty tentacles, summon some shitty hounds, hide, watch the trickle of xp (if any) come in, get killed (usually by a glass cannon without even any soak), rinse, repeat.
Joined: Jul 05, 2011 Posts: 609 Location: Behind you
Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:41 pm Post subject:
saulres wrote:
Sac wrote:
My WM has basically been feral since hitting T3. Same routine, plant some shitty tentacles, summon some shitty hounds, hide, watch the trickle of xp (if any) come in, get killed (usually by a glass cannon without even any soak), rinse, repeat.
Hey that would be me!
Haha. Yes. That would be you. _________________ DS Vengence (10321)|Exar Kun (9839)|Odysseus (6385)|Sac II (3599)|Secundus Nulli (3900)|Spécïâl Chàrăcŧẽr (6153)|Darth Bane (5067)|The occasional shadow (4078)|Ventis Secundus (3858)
What about allowing Will-o-Wisps, Aethersprites, and Imps to attack conduits? Will-o-Wisps, Aethersprites, and Imps are already able to attack flying and invisible characters. Is there something about the conduit wisp form which is even more special than being able to fly? Because they clearly aren't invisible.
The thing that makes wisp form special and different from flying or invisibility is it makes the character intangible. But if they can cast magic while intangible, there's no reason that magical beings couldn't attack them in return.
What about allowing Will-o-Wisps, Aethersprites, and Imps to attack conduits? Will-o-Wisps, Aethersprites, and Imps are already able to attack flying and invisible characters. Is there something about the conduit wisp form which is even more special than being able to fly? Because they clearly aren't invisible.
I would never summon a Wil-o-wisp as a Lich, they seam like a pointless waste of CP and MP, Imps are pretty garbage too and that's a general community opinion. _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
What about allowing Will-o-Wisps, Aethersprites, and Imps to attack conduits? Will-o-Wisps, Aethersprites, and Imps are already able to attack flying and invisible characters. Is there something about the conduit wisp form which is even more special than being able to fly? Because they clearly aren't invisible.
I would never summon a Wil-o-wisp as a Lich, they seam like a pointless waste of CP and MP, Imps are pretty garbage too and that's a general community opinion.
Oh, *you* would never summon one? That doesn't make it a bad suggestion. I also think it seems reasonable. The game is not made for you as an individual. I hardly think you are the voice of the community. If wisps and imps are too weak, then they should get looked at. Instead, you wish to dismiss them as garbage? This would be a buff to them, as it so happens. Therefore, they would have more use by virtue of such a change.
Joined: Jan 19, 2010 Posts: 2278 Location: Charlotte's Bakery University
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:45 am Post subject:
retsamajnin wrote:
RaelCleap wrote:
Gompthere wrote:
What about allowing Will-o-Wisps, Aethersprites, and Imps to attack conduits? Will-o-Wisps, Aethersprites, and Imps are already able to attack flying and invisible characters. Is there something about the conduit wisp form which is even more special than being able to fly? Because they clearly aren't invisible.
I would never summon a Wil-o-wisp as a Lich, they seam like a pointless waste of CP and MP, Imps are pretty garbage too and that's a general community opinion.
Oh, *you* would never summon one? That doesn't make it a bad suggestion. I also think it seems reasonable. The game is not made for you as an individual. I hardly think you are the voice of the community. If wisps and imps are too weak, then they should get looked at. Instead, you wish to dismiss them as garbage? This would be a buff to them, as it so happens. Therefore, they would have more use by virtue of such a change.
This has gotten rather heated and it is worth a reminder that this is a game. Please treat each other with respect.
Now, there are several topics being discussed here that are all getting packaged together in one thread, and it is creating unnecessary tension as they collide with each other. These include, but are not limited to:
1. The efficacy of petmasters as a role, in all situations and for all petmaster classes.
2. Raelcleap's personal experiences of playing feral petmasters.
3. A pending change that will revise the function of Wisp Form.
4. Suggestions for other changes that would augment or replace the pending change in #3, or change #1 overall.
These topics are all each easily deserving of their own thread, but they are all here together, which is creating the appearance of connections between these topics that aren't necessarily there (in particular, #3 is not being enacted because of #2). I would strongly encourage the creation of separate threads for each of these topics, and I or another mod could assist in splitting off new threads as needed.
What about allowing Will-o-Wisps, Aethersprites, and Imps to attack conduits? Will-o-Wisps, Aethersprites, and Imps are already able to attack flying and invisible characters. Is there something about the conduit wisp form which is even more special than being able to fly? Because they clearly aren't invisible.
I would never summon a Wil-o-wisp as a Lich, they seam like a pointless waste of CP and MP, Imps are pretty garbage too and that's a general community opinion.
Oh, *you* would never summon one? That doesn't make it a bad suggestion. I also think it seems reasonable. The game is not made for you as an individual. I hardly think you are the voice of the community. If wisps and imps are too weak, then they should get looked at. Instead, you wish to dismiss them as garbage? This would be a buff to them, as it so happens. Therefore, they would have more use by virtue of such a change.
So the only summon that attacks them is a weak damage and easily neutralised damage type summon. No I don't like that idea at all. The weakest summon out of all the ones on offer for the lich.
It would not be a buff to them as there damage isn't increased, nor their low easily neutralised damage changed.
Plus you still have the nuking pet master problem and ghouls / strongest summons ignoring the wisp form when striking the pet master. So it dosen't fix the issue. Pluss keeps the Conduit at the possition it is now with wisp form. A pet master killer with next to no effort.
So No, I don't think its a good idea.
It is still imbalanced and in no way a buff to the pets that have very little use other than utility. When I say utility in the case of will-o-wisp I use it loosely.
I am not the voice of the community and never claimed to be, but from chats in IRC and with people on the forum, general concensus is that wisps and Imps are not worth the cp. This sugestion will not change that, nor change the issue at hand.
Even the person who made the sugestion, has said in other threads that imps are not exactly worth it. Pluss with the low damage with easily neutralised type, it changes nothing but keep the Conduit as a pet killer. Plus I would hate to be forced into compramising my ghouls feasting for a summon that I would rather replace with anything else in the horde, wights, fossil, hell even skellitons over will-o-wisp.
That doesn't work as the primary issue remains the same. Regardless of the poor quality of the imp and Will-o-wsisp, the main problem being with a lot of summons the MP and CP cost for what they do being to high on some, but this isn't the topic for that discussion.
This Mp issue on some pets is what makes SH play rather dull with little feral play, down to MP costs in some cases being 5mp too high for what the pet is. EG: wight being 25mp, with just a minor change to 20 mp it would keep it balanced but would see the pet used more and alows more roaming xp feral grinding inbetween faction play. This especially rings true for lesser pets like Imp that is 15mp, it just isn't worth it. When you can have Hell hounds or ghouls for the same price in MP. _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
So... If you're gonna launch a nerf to a skill mid-breath, which wasn't even a bug or game breaking, you guys should at least holler up with an announcement once you do. Kinda frells up people who, y'know, use the skill :v
Joined: Jul 05, 2011 Posts: 609 Location: Behind you
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:37 pm Post subject:
Yukari wrote:
----
So... If you're gonna launch a nerf to a skill mid-breath, which wasn't even a bug or game breaking, you guys should at least holler up with an announcement once you do. Kinda frells up people who, y'know, use the skill :v
Just saying...
Yep pretty friggin rude way to find out. Already noticed a number of liches standing outside with..... impunity. _________________ DS Vengence (10321)|Exar Kun (9839)|Odysseus (6385)|Sac II (3599)|Secundus Nulli (3900)|Spécïâl Chàrăcŧẽr (6153)|Darth Bane (5067)|The occasional shadow (4078)|Ventis Secundus (3858)
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