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Alternatively, let's try something else. What's your end game for feral petmasters (and petmasters in general, really), Rael?
Do you want to spawn, pull 200 ghouls out of your pocket and waddle into a library and be unkillable or something?
I personally don't find fighting pets interesting, amusing or fun in any way. It's forced PvE in a PvP game. Petmasters are the minisentry engineers of Nexus Clash, just an annoyance that forces you to play a certain class to get rid of them before you can have fun. Likewise, I played a petmaster last breath and I'm never doing it again because it's not fun.
Have you ever considered that maybe petmasters just aren't what you're looking for in this game? They aren't unbeatable stone walls with bazookas and guns, they're speedbumps that make cars with shitty suspensions go flying off the road. And thank God for that. _________________ IF WE LOOK AT ROME AND SEE OUR HOME, THE END IS ON ITS WAY
Alternatively, let's try something else. What's your end game for feral petmasters (and petmasters in general, really), Rael?
Do you want to spawn, pull 200 ghouls out of your pocket and waddle into a library and be unkillable or something?
I personally don't find fighting pets interesting, amusing or fun in any way. It's forced PvE in a PvP game. Petmasters are the minisentry engineers of Nexus Clash, just an annoyance that forces you to play a certain class to get rid of them before you can have fun. Likewise, I played a petmaster last breath and I'm never doing it again because it's not fun.
Have you ever considered that maybe petmasters just aren't what you're looking for in this game? They aren't unbeatable stone walls with bazookas and guns, they're speedbumps that make cars with shitty suspensions go flying off the road. And thank God for that.
For example my Lich is rewarding, I can pick up 5 copses and roll a few ghouls and fossil all in one ap cycle feral hunt and then camp / be killed making the feral lands a little more dangerous and fun.
Why can Lich do this, easy. Mp cost of ghoul and fossil, fossil is worth its 25 mp rejuve cost and is built from skeletons, arguably useful as you look for or summon a corpse feral prowling.
Its why wight I regard as to expensive MP wise, 25 mp, well that's pretty much all your mp, it also discourages moving with the wight too, as it increases the MP needed for the rejuv costs urgency; dependent on how far out you move from the SH. Feral, it is redundant as it takes most of your mp and its only true use is to kill an NC. Personally with DrCleaver , if I come across an NC I move on.
I think a Wight is worth 18-20 MP tops for what it is. If it was this mp cost, you could fit one or two in a feral horde quite easily.
Remember short of hunting the corpse it costs an addition 5mp to summon a corpse to you, making a wight a wopping 30mp and 25 mp rejuv' as it stands and it decays.
Thus pinning to the Lich in a constant SM cutting cycle just to maintain a few in defense. To what purpose considering the neutralization of most of my pet attacks during a prepped raid. Hence why Ghoulball hunting and camping is so popular.
Pick up and play.
The WM , Imp total waste of MP and CP...
And here is why, 150cp for a low hp/mp pet that can see invis and take ONE shot for its master; not really relevant during a raid as you can maintain two at the most. 15MP to summon and rejuv' for 5 fire damage.
I would suggest to make it 10mp to cast and combine its child skills into one skill for 60CP and add a 5 slashing attack / Rejuv' reduction of MP cost to 8 when this new child skill is taken.
Hell Hound, I would suggest make it 12MP to cast.
I also suggest make nether grafting make the hell hound only 6 to rejuv' and retain its change of H'hound to Netherhound when rejuv'd (so H' hound 12mp, +6MP rejuv' to turn it to Nether hound with N'grafting.
Replace one of Netherhouds elemental attacks with a mundane attack, I suggest its fire attack to be removed for the mundane attack.
So full pack of H'hounds, with Nether hounds would have Mundane attack, fire and Death between them.
To promote pick up and play variety on both classes while maintaining defense capability.
Invun pot's will always make the PM redundant in defense v a prepped raid. That is just the truth of the matter.
My argument is the amount of hunting a PM can get in before its faction is wiped. Arguably not much with PM MP costs as they are on some pets. With the false assumption some pets will be useful v a prepped raid.
Its why Lich is the most popular PM, the effectiveness of feral ghoul-ball and the pick up and play, low mp costs on most its pets. I can do this with a Lich.
If the leylines are dry, you are less than half effective with a Hound WM as it stands. 2 hounds off base MP for pick up and play feral. 6 to 8 with a max or slightly drained leyline tap, that costs you ap for your hunt; This is H'hounds only, even less to actually get the NetherHound (which main purpose is to hunt with). Also remember xp is diminished and sometimes not rewarded for pet kills based off your targets level. Hence the need for each PM to have at least one Pick up and play pet in their arsenal.
Make all titan pets 25 MP to summon.
That's what i would do. _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Last edited by RaelCleap on Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
With Wrackworm, why would I choose a netherhound to hunt with, Wrackworm is 10 MP less in MP consumption and a way better option. Considering a pick up and play feral, I would only get one of ether off base MP. The worm also doesn't decay.
Which makes me wonder, what is Nether Grafting for? It isn't defense, as normal Hell hounds are better for that for less of an MP cost. This is because of their secondary mundane attack that cannot be immunized against. _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Pets in a raid defense versus a tank are where they are at their weakest - Its not fair to look at that to claim pets are not worth the investment, because pets offer more than that.
If you compare MP spent on a pet versus MP spent on a spell when attacking someone who doesn't have truckloads of soak, the pet does a lot more damage for the MP investment.
The problem with balancing petmasters in a way to make them more powerful as a feral is that it then makes them far too good in a coordinated faction. When your petmaster can be healed to SM more, or be energised.... They can summon a lot more pets. Reducing MP cost would make the petmasters in these situations far too powerful.
Many factions bring petmasters on raids to great effect - They let you go after much bigger factions without fear of running out of gas.
Nexus Clash is like Team Fortress 2 - Not every class is going to be that powerful in every situation all by itself.
A feral petmaster will always be weaker than a petmaster working as part of a team. They are not necessarily balanced for solo feral play, and a petmaster is not necessarily designed to run around hunting people down one at a time with their pets. A petmaster is more of a tactical nuke - you deploy them versus the larger targets. The "better" feral petmasters would be adepts, as they have a low maintenance pet that gets the job done without having to hope to survive long enough to get a meaningful pet collection up.
Many things are up for review and possibly major change, including potion based immunities and pet mechanics. We aren't leaving these things as-is, but at the same time, I can't tell you the plan because it'd be not terribly wise of me to say "We're going to do XYZ" when we could well decide over the course of our testing that changing it to do ABC would in fact be better.
With Wrackworm, why would I choose a netherhound to hunt with
Because once you summon the Wrackworm and drain some dude of his mana you cant make another Wrackworm?
(EagleWiz are you going to continue to be belligerently condescending and pedantic or actually discuss whats being said)?
But I will indulge you...
Why would I need another? Also another X ap and MP to DH and Ap to re-summon another overly costly 20 mp / 40 mp pet.
Lich... "Oh a corpse" 10mp. Or SM x 3 instant ghoul with servitor of the grave, all more efficient and less costly MP wise than the WM! (pick up and play style after a Faction wipe / feral death).
And the issue isn't even the redundancy in the PM in defense, It is recovery after faction wipe.
As an example, a pinned summoning faction WM spends a few days getting his hunting pet Nether hounds sorted (laughably the hunting pet costs so much MP as it certainly isn't for defense). Os raid the faction before they get to hunt (for diminished XP from pet kills). They have to repeat the couple of day rebuild, Oh raided again... *Sighs*
It's the recovery time and pick up and play effect. Again why ghoul is so popular I would ague even if it didn't raise its victim as another ghoul it is still the best pet, why?
MP Cost to summon / maintain and its hp/ mp/ ap, plus damage and damage types.
Bringing me back full circle as to the point of why MP on some pets is way to HIGH. _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Pets in a raid defense versus a tank are where they are at their weakest - Its not fair to look at that to claim pets are not worth the investment, because pets offer more than that.
If you compare MP spent on a pet versus MP spent on a spell when attacking someone who doesn't have truckloads of soak, the pet does a lot more damage for the MP investment.
The problem with balancing petmasters in a way to make them more powerful as a feral is that it then makes them far too good in a coordinated faction. When your petmaster can be healed to SM more, or be energised.... They can summon a lot more pets. Reducing MP cost would make the petmasters in these situations far too powerful.
Many factions bring petmasters on raids to great effect - They let you go after much bigger factions without fear of running out of gas.
Nexus Clash is like Team Fortress 2 - Not every class is going to be that powerful in every situation all by itself.
A feral petmaster will always be weaker than a petmaster working as part of a team. They are not necessarily balanced for solo feral play, and a petmaster is not necessarily designed to run around hunting people down one at a time with their pets. A petmaster is more of a tactical nuke - you deploy them versus the larger targets. The "better" feral petmasters would be adepts, as they have a low maintenance pet that gets the job done without having to hope to survive long enough to get a meaningful pet collection up.
Many things are up for review and possibly major change, including potion based immunities and pet mechanics. We aren't leaving these things as-is, but at the same time, I can't tell you the plan because it'd be not terribly wise of me to say "We're going to do XYZ" when we could well decide over the course of our testing that changing it to do ABC would in fact be better.
I am not asking for a buff on the lich other then a 6 mp reduction on Wight. That's one more wight feral play and Two more faction play per ap cycle totally dedicated to wight. 2 possible wights for a feral PM off a base re spawn MP.
The Suggestion for the WM fixes imp to be worth its cost in CP/MP.
The hound / nether hound suggestions bring the WM in speed of re-spawn and play to be the same as a Lich's. That's 3 More hounds total per ap Cycle, if the damage needed to be tweaked by 1 or 2 on Nether Hound so be it, but I would rather lower damage and the ap / mp cost to not to pin me to the spot for days, just to be raid wiped. Hunting with a pm is painful enough for xp.
As we have established, the pet wall = nothing v a organised Raid, so why bother being pinned to the SH at all, wasting ap / mp and time? While doing so you are not gaining xp, nor have the ap to do other things like badge grind.
In a good faction healing XP is quashed by Sprites, in an evil faction demons can't be healed. What are the alternatives while pet summoning and maintaining? _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Last edited by RaelCleap on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
The core of your argument appears to be that you can't get a large feral horde instantly unless you are playing a Lich with Ghouls, and this means that other pets should cost less MP.
The problem here is not that every other pet is weak because they cost too much MP, the problem is that Ghouls are overly strong and so the other pets pale in comparison. And yet when the problem is one single tanky class feature (adaptation) being possibly too powerful and making that class arguably OP you call for nerfs instead of arguing that we should buff seraph and behemoth and ES. Why is that exactly?
(I suspect the answer to my last question may have something to do with the number of lich characters you play v.s. the number of Nexus Champions you have, but thats just speculation)
The core of your argument appears to be that you can't get a large feral horde instantly unless you are playing a Lich with Ghouls, and this means that other pets should cost less MP.
The problem here is not that every other pet is weak because they cost too much MP, the problem is that Ghouls are overly strong and so the other pets pale in comparison. And yet when the problem is one single tanky class feature (adaptation) being possibly too powerful and making that class arguably OP you call for nerfs instead of arguing that we should buff seraph and behemoth and ES. Why is that exactly?
(I suspect the answer to my last question may have something to do with the number of lich characters you play v.s. the number of Nexus Champions you have, but thats just speculation)
Actually it is death recovery and the fact being pinned to the SH as a PM is dull as dishwater and forced upon us in MP costs that are to high. When the Lich should be a model to bring the WM mp costs into line with and make them effective for a feral style of play, between death and faction defense building /wiping.
5 Hell hounds is no where near as strong as a Lich Ghoul horde which is what my suggestion would afford you per cycle of BASE ap/mp. Also capping you at a comfortable 10 horde in a faction as a rejuv' faction WM. Exactly like a Lich's sweet spot.
Also the MP costs of the Lich is the reason why it is fun and bearable to play compared to the grind of a WM.
I actually said earlier in this thread That ES needs an aura and stand by that statement.
I also said it is Not the NC that is OP, but the effects of Immunity potions with an NC that makes them seam op. That is an issue with the Invun' potions, not the tank!
But sure be sarcastic and derogative, I can do that too. But I do actually have a point I am sticking to with logic and experience of play. Rather than your belligerently berating pedantic, sarcastic comments designed to insult my intelligence and derail my points.
Be my guest.
I stand by all I have said here. _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Last edited by RaelCleap on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
One thing to remember WM pets (before TLL) were the amount of pets Breath 3, and hence the Tanks and Adepts were balanced around.
The Lich in fact summons easily double the maximum number of pets they were supposed to have. So a re balancing will probably fix the numbers a Lich will have to the correct level, not make it so other PMs can have less.
I'm pretty sure getting rid of immunity potions has also been discussed repeatedly, and probably hasn't happened in part because of the size of ghoul hordes.
That's not to say other things don't need fixing, and we can't make PMs more fun to play.
One thing to remember WM pets (before TLL) were the amount of pets Breath 3, and hence the Tanks and Adepts were balanced around.
The Lich in fact summons easily double the maximum number of pets they were supposed to have. So a re balancing will probably fix the numbers a Lich will have to the correct level, not make it so other PMs can have less.
I'm pretty sure getting rid of immunity potions has also been discussed repeatedly, and probably hasn't happened in part because of the size of ghoul hordes.
They are a flash in a pan myth, a comfortable ghoul horde that can be maintained is 10 and the size based around the max caps of the Ghoul related skills (simulacrum). Anymore than that is very difficult to maintain without being pinned to the spot, fed by other players ap in the form of MP potions or, healing. Pointless for defense for reasons I have already gone over.
Leaving Healing, Light faction sprites stop that, evil faction = demons that can't be healed. I would read but I am summoning hounds....
This massive ghoul size horde is only achieved after successful raids. I am very lucky if i even hit 16+ horde and that's without ANY other pets.
V a well prepped Raid team the defense of pets really is mute as long as Invun potions exist, Fact. So if you keep Invun potions a WM and LS mp costs need to come down on SOME pets to allow more frequent hunting, or you remove Invun' potions, so xp is actually gained from raid defense and warrants all that sitting and summoning of pets pinned to one spot. _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Last edited by RaelCleap on Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
(EagleWiz are you going to continue to be belligerently condescending and pedantic or actually discuss whats being said)?
RaelCleap wrote:
Rather than your belligerently berating pedantic
Pedantic
adjective
1.
ostentatious in one's learning.
2.
overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, especially in teaching.
I don't think that word means what you think it means. My criticism's of your opinions on pet-master and tank balance have not included minute details or formalisms at all.
Perhaps rather then attempting alliterative aggressive assertions against alleged attackers, as an alternative address any argument against aforementioned assessment.
(EagleWiz are you going to continue to be belligerently condescending and pedantic or actually discuss whats being said)?
RaelCleap wrote:
Rather than your belligerently berating pedantic
Pedantic
adjective
1.
ostentatious in one's learning.
2.
overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, especially in teaching.
I don't think that word means what you think it means. My criticism's of your opinions on pet-master and tank balance have not included minute details or formalisms at all.
Perhaps rather then attempting alliterative aggressive assertions against alleged attackers, as an alternative address any argument against aforementioned assessment.
It means exactly what I intended it to mean
"excessively concerned with minor details or rules; overscrupulous."
In regards to; derailing with information we already know! rather than addressing the rout and whys of the Issue.
Which if you had been paying attention instead of imposing an air of flippant superiority of Intelligence, you may have noticed that is what I'm trying to do...
Giving reason and possible solutions, also pointing out the madness of the pinning of the PM.
What Happens come when everyone maxes, no people to hunt in the feral areas? There is enough SH camping, why Force it upon PM's and force it to be tedious for some PM classes (WM), when you have a base comfortable and fun MP set, pretty much in the Lich. Which only really needs to make the wight 18-20 mp to make it perfect for both feral and defensive faction play.
But sure fling some more mud and see if it sticks, I ain't standin' fo' ya being a dick.
Plus if you had been paying attention, it is you, yes, you, that seams to ignore the points "I'M RAISING!" and so far haven't given a compelling reason to why not. Oh I did address you question, didn't you see it in all your pomp?
Other than pedantic facts we already know designed to derail the discussion and try and make me look the fool, your usual method. Callin' you on it now, while actually trying to deal with the discussion. _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Last edited by RaelCleap on Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
What I don't understand is: Why would a feral petmaster need a truckload of pets? I don't yet have a PM in this breath, but I'd imagine that two or three pets should be enough to take down all but the most tankiest targets.
Likewise, being pinned to the SH because of high rejuv costs and thus hunting being unviable is just a matter of choice - You can choose to maintain a smaller force and hunt with it, or a larger force and sit with it. Complaining that you can't do both, is kinda like complaining that a conduit can't hunt if they spend all their ap and MP enchanting/brewing potions.
I also get the feeling that expectations towards pets (as a method of passive defense) is way off the charts. Let's face it: Any sort of passive defense is merely delaying the inevitable. Wards? Will be busted. Forts? Will be destroyed. Glyphs? Will be ereased. Dodge? They'll hit sooner or later. Soak? Doesn't make you immune. Immunity? Damage type can usually be changed. Pets? Will be killed individually, or by killing their master. (A side note for ferals: Aside from a few special cases, sleeping outside = waking up dead. There's no reason why petmasters should be an exception to this).
If 1 prepaired raider can take down a hundred pets, then maybe you don't need that many of them? If you have enough Petmasters to summon 100 pets, then why couldn't they drop their pets down to, say, total of 25? That should be enough to take down any un-prepared raider, and against a prepared raider, they'll achieve as much as the hundred - Leaving your PM's with more MP and AP for hunting and stuff. _________________ "I am your Slave
And you will Reward me
For I shall be Faithful."
(That's from Dracula, by Stoker.)
What I don't understand is: Why would a feral petmaster need a truckload of pets? I don't yet have a PM in this breath, but I'd imagine that two or three pets should be enough to take down all but the most tankiest targets.
Likewise, being pinned to the SH because of high rejuv costs and thus hunting being unviable is just a matter of choice - You can choose to maintain a smaller force and hunt with it, or a larger force and sit with it. Complaining that you can't do both, is kinda like complaining that a conduit can't hunt if they spend all their ap and MP enchanting/brewing potions.
I also get the feeling that expectations towards pets (as a method of passive defense) is way off the charts. Let's face it: Any sort of passive defense is merely delaying the inevitable. Wards? Will be busted. Forts? Will be destroyed. Glyphs? Will be ereased. Dodge? They'll hit sooner or later. Soak? Doesn't make you immune. Immunity? Damage type can usually be changed. Pets? Will be killed individually, or by killing their master. (A side note for ferals: Aside from a few special cases, sleeping outside = waking up dead. There's no reason why petmasters should be an exception to this).
If 1 prepaired raider can take down a hundred pets, then maybe you don't need that many of them? If you have enough Petmasters to summon 100 pets, then why couldn't they drop their pets down to, say, total of 25? That should be enough to take down any un-prepared raider, and against a prepared raider, they'll achieve as much as the hundred - Leaving your PM's with more MP and AP for hunting and stuff.
Invun', soak potion + abilities makes everyone a sudo tank if they wanna be. That is why.
I don't mind dieing as a feral, that is not the issue, its the speed at which a pm can re-Group and hunt after death that I am discussing.
Which is comparable to Certain Pets MP costs. Which certain pets pin PM's to the spot because of there MP costs.
Its why I used the Ghouls MP cost / damage / hp / mp as an example for mp cost, even without its raise dead skill, it is a superior pet for the fact of three reasons.
1. Good mundane damage
2. MP cost for what you get ap/hp/mp wise in the pet.
3. Its mp cost allows a quick pick up and play horde after death that's why it is more efficiently built than a WM/LS pets because of its cheap MP cost of its hunting pet, the Ghoul.
The model in number three should be replicated for fast recovery and allow ability for the AP to do other things, just like other classes. Like badge farming.
Being killed is not the issue, its the recovery time through PM MP costs of pets on WM / LS that is the issue.
I'm not asking for the power of any of the pets to change, just for the costs inn mp to be lowered to allow three things.
1.Fast recovery after death so they can hunt more often or do other things EG: badge grind. Rather than pinned to the SH summoning.
2. Quicker rebuild of faction defense v feral's. Making repeated raids against the SH less frustrating. Encourages more raiding through faster recovery.
3. The option of being feral as a pm efficiently while retaining the option of varied pet horde. Which pinning high MP costs / maintenance of certain pets stop. _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Last edited by RaelCleap on Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:14 pm; edited 14 times in total
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