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Suggestion: Make pets nullify more soak to make them more useful, or make aura damages diminish as they damage (resulting in the maker having to spend extra resources and time protecting against the pets).
Why should the tanks main way of killing pets, an essential (See: Eternal Soldier for evidence) feature, be less effective against the class they're intended to deal with?
About XP on raid defence - I've had raid defences where my aura on my seraph has killed 2 attackers for 0 XP. I've also had raid defences where my LS has gotten 40 or so XP for barely scratching an IB - petmasters are already the only classes capable of getting XP while asleep in their SH.
Less likely now that meta tanking is done by NC's. How many IB tanks do you see raiding?
Another reason why I like Aidans suggestion.
I will say it again, Feral PM yields more reward. Factioned PM does nothing other than stroke the enemy tanks ego! Gain? No, just tax in ap / mp and resources.
Try it for yourself... I have! Have you? _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
We already have a soak-busty pet; wights have a damage floor of 2. Between that and the crazy amount of damage pets deal - every petmaster has at least 2 options that deal 12 damage or more - damage & soak are not an issue. Being a petmaster is like being able to summon fully kitted out T2s on command. Oh no, you can't kill a raid-ready T3 tank. Feature working as intended.
Really Rael, what exactly do you think should have happened in that raid? 1 XP pings for each of those attacks? Sure, fine. Probably not something that we need this many threads about, but fine. Beyond that? I'm seeing two dedicated tank classes that were prepped for a raid, with an organized raid team executing correctly behind them (ie not unnecessarily drawing aggro), clearing a faction that has no active defenders and a fine-but-not-noteworthy petwall. Nobody should be dying, and your stronghold and corpse should be a smouldering crater at the end of that. If it isn't, nobody could raid anybody, ever, and the game would be dead.
The primary purpose of petmasters is not to sit in the SH and circlejerk forever to make the hold invincible. Defensively, pets are a buffer against actives and a deterrent against disorganized failraids. Sometimes they'll pick up some kills, sometimes they'll help your actives punch through a tank, and sometimes you'll just get smeared across the walls.
But if you're only using your pets defensively, that's just user error. I have my WM up with what I consider a full horde (1 wrackwyrm + 6 nethers) in one day, maybe 2 depending on how leylines are looking and how many deathfarmers are nearby. After that, it's alchemy, crafting, tentacle dickery, and raiding. Which, relatedly, is closer to the primary purpose of petmaster classes anyway. You've got super-efficient clearing power combined with an aura and a bunch of defensive stats, and the best thing you can think to do is be a stay at home dad to a pack of ghouls? The problem here is not that you died. The problem is that you spent 4 days not doing anything.
Factioned PM's are less and less inclined to be factioned because of the tanks, balance them well against eachother so a lone tank won't be able to defeat a mob of ghouls that took weeks on weeks to build up, rather make the horde much weaker so some EM behemoth or so can finish the job. Having it so that one person can completely disable the main defense of a faction (ward aside) makes it so factioned players will be more inclined to play feral, eventually leading to the complete decline of factions.
It takes less than 24 hours to rebuild a 10-ghoul mob.
In that time you earn 96 AP and 96 MP. Using Phylactery is 20 AP, summoning 6 ghouls in that period assuming no overflow wastage and no Sorcerer's Might is (3 AP 5 MP per corpse, 1 + 10 for the actual reanimation) 24 AP, 90 MP, leaving 52 AP, 6 MP. 11 AP on SM makes that 41 AP, 61 MP, at which point another 16 AP and 60 MP for four more ghouls leaves you at 25 AP, 1 MP. If you took Stamina or have healing available, you can SM twice more to place another Phylactery if you want the whole process to be sustainable.
The idea that this will have any significant negative effect on the popularity of being factioned is ridiculous.
e: And this is ignoring the very likely possibility that when you respawn into your recently-cleared stronghold, it'll be full of corpses already.
Factioned PM's are less and less inclined to be factioned because of the tanks, balance them well against eachother so a lone tank won't be able to defeat a mob of ghouls that took weeks on weeks to build up, rather make the horde much weaker so some EM behemoth or so can finish the job. Having it so that one person can completely disable the main defense of a faction (ward aside) makes it so factioned players will be more inclined to play feral, eventually leading to the complete decline of factions.
No, we can't just balance PMs against each other - they're intended to be countered by tanks, so need to be balanced against them. That also means that yes, a prepared tank should beat a prepared PM. That's their purpose
Also, there's really no good reason you'd want to keep a 10-pet horde from the get-go, really. Why not keep just 6 and an elite? If you are trying to maintain a big horde you're just shooting yourself in the foot and then crying about it as if it's not your own fault. If you're not a maxed out PM you don't have to have a big pack of pets for anything. Just summon the 5-ish big group and go hunting/farm books/whatever you do for exp.
I got my lich in Mira's. Occasionally we'll get raided. I know I have the potential SM-mana to maintain a 15-ish big skeleton wall. But what for? half do the same job, and a prepared tank is going to punch through both with virtually the same amount of effort. By not burning all my ap in SM (which I still do to help other people level up, anyway), I got ap I can use levelling up (really, I currently got my skellies with about 700 ap, good to last me for a whole week without rejuvving again >_>).
Sure, the lack of exp from 1-damage pings is a bummer, but PMs are still the ONLY class that can gain XP AND be a threat to anyone unprepared when they are not even playing the game. Seriously.
edit: also, I'm quite sure the mere presence of my lich in Mira's roster has considerably reduced the frequency with which we get raided. that's what pms do; call it cold-warfare, if you will. _________________ Tanks for everything.
Last edited by Yukari on Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:35 am; edited 1 time in total
You are just reinforcing that the feral is more efficient.
@ Melin: My problem is that by your own admittance, two days to get a horde up. Then the rejuv costs of a limited hunt, much smaller for a lich in distance they can farm. Plus you run on less ap than any other char because of the pet taxes.
Between daily rejuv costs and taxes.
The diminished XP.
The fact after the two days of making the horde you may not find a target, more likely with the smaller roving ground. Also if you do, it may not even yield xp.
Your right, I'm better off feral. FYI doing all the things you suggested yield more xp feral, more resource, and badges.
Why bother Defending? As there is no reward. Look, I'm not retarded and those who know me or my actual characters will also know, I play efficient and to the strengths of a character.
But as of now, as of a few months now, I stand behind my statement...
Defense of a faction for a PM is pointless waste of resource as it stands. It does nothing but drain the PM and basically puts a Kick me sign on the PM's back for a tank to come a knocking; at least twice to three times a week.
But I digress... I'll just go feral and not bother with raiding or defending raids on the PM's.
As even after this constant circle of flaw pointing in the regard of PM's in raid defense... for the PM's that are up and coming, I don't see it being fixed.
So feral play it is! Once I'm all max badged and ground out like you guys, I'll get board and return back to the SH to circle jerk a few tanks that knock round. Then and only then will it not matter, but will be a continual problem for new PM characters and players. _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Last edited by RaelCleap on Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:39 am; edited 1 time in total
Also, there's really no good reason you'd want to keep a 10-pet horde from the get-go, really. Why not keep just 6 and an elite?
I'm level-capped, have very little time to play, and a member of a relatively small faction which would otherwise be an appealing target for other small factions who sometimes have marginal anti-pet capabilities -- no tank, underleveled tanks, only an IB with inadequate potion support, etc.
Also, having ten pets plus the resources to summon more is useful when you're solo raiding as a PM and have to deal with a similar number of pets on the other side, and/or kill tanks by sheer brute numbers.
Of course, I'm also not complaining, I think petmasters are one of the stronger archetypes in the game and Liches in particular are probably too good. (Although it's really just Ghouls.)
Also, there's really no good reason you'd want to keep a 10-pet horde from the get-go, really. Why not keep just 6 and an elite?
I'm level-capped, have very little time to play, and a member of a relatively small faction which would otherwise be an appealing target for other small factions who sometimes have marginal anti-pet capabilities -- no tank, underleveled tanks, only an IB with inadequate potion support, etc.
Also, having ten pets plus the resources to summon more is useful when you're solo raiding as a PM and have to deal with a similar number of pets on the other side, and/or kill tanks by sheer brute numbers.
Of course, I'm also not complaining, I think petmasters are one of the stronger archetypes in the game and Liches in particular are probably too good. (Although it's really just Ghouls.)
This is not the issue, I have said this many times. Pets power on the attack and defense is fine.
It is the lack of reward for faction defense that is the issue.
Oh and pet MP costs, but that won't even get looked at until B4, guaranteed!
I keep saying this. _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Last edited by RaelCleap on Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total
Also, speaking as someone who solo raids a lot and has basically zero problems with vulturing unless that character's faction has a rule against it -- a Lich on the roster will absolutely make me stop and think twice before hitting you. Every faction should have a Lich, and they should be the first one home after a raid if they can, because that's the best thing you can do to stay safe until you can bring the ward back up.
RaelCleap wrote:
This is not the issue, I have said this many times. Pets power on the attack and defense is fine.
It is the lack of reward for faction defense that is the issue.
I keep saying this.
And people keep explaining to you, accurately, that it is a non-issue.
Also, speaking as someone who solo raids a lot and has basically zero problems with vulturing unless that character's faction has a rule against it -- a Lich on the roster will absolutely make me stop and think twice before hitting you. Every faction should have a Lich, and they should be the first one home after a raid if they can, because that's the best thing you can do to stay safe until you can bring the ward back up.
RaelCleap wrote:
This is not the issue, I have said this many times. Pets power on the attack and defense is fine.
It is the lack of reward for faction defense that is the issue.
I keep saying this.
And people keep explaining to you, accurately, that it is a non-issue.
To maxed out fully badged PM's maybe... But especially level 20+ new PM's it is an issue, they are better off feral.
Still no reward for the payment in pet tax on the defense. Issue still stands, why bother defending?
Also in our raid culture my feral PM's live longer. Know why? Because I'm not sat in a fort with a big Bullseye painted on my face. People don't know where I am. As feral those who stumble where I am, are not prepped and usually die yielding xp... oh and the badge resource obvious gains in feral life.
Return to the SH for what? To loose my horde v a prepped tank on a recap...
MADNESS! _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Last edited by RaelCleap on Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total
The reward for summoning lots of pets is that you can effectively store damage spells for later use, far exceeding your actual mana cap. The cost is that people can disrupt it. Defending your stronghold is a happy side effect, so that even when you're paying the cost you still get a marginal, extra advantage.
Also, there's really no good reason you'd want to keep a 10-pet horde from the get-go, really. Why not keep just 6 and an elite?
I'm level-capped, have very little time to play, and a member of a relatively small faction which would otherwise be an appealing target for other small factions who sometimes have marginal anti-pet capabilities -- no tank, underleveled tanks, only an IB with inadequate potion support, etc.
Also, having ten pets plus the resources to summon more is useful when you're solo raiding as a PM and have to deal with a similar number of pets on the other side, and/or kill tanks by sheer brute numbers.
Of course, I'm also not complaining, I think petmasters are one of the stronger archetypes in the game and Liches in particular are probably too good. (Although it's really just Ghouls.)
Yeah, I getcha, I was mostly saying for the case of non-maxxed PMs that still need to get exp and such things. Once you're capped it's perfectly reasonable to maintain a larger horde to pump-up defence and offence.
RaelCleap wrote:
-snip-
When you're low levelled you gotta get exp, not use all your resources putting up defences. That's like asking your mortals to build your forts. As I said before, you're shooting yourself in the foot. _________________ Tanks for everything.
Rael, two days to get my pets up is a worst case scenario, on a class that needs to summon AND rejuv the "horde" pet. That very rarely ever happens (shout out to everybody who refunded TLL!), and is made dramatically easier by being able to chill in a stronghold, especially since it frequently sports an Arcane Well for me. Feral Lich play may work just fine thanks to ghoulball mechanics, but I wouldn't go feral with my WM and trying to pretend that I'm living a rough life here would be downright disingenuous.
Beyond that, alchemy is miserable and mostly pointless feral, crafting is worse feral (dying degrades your equipment, but that doesn't make up for the respawn+travel AP), raiding flat out doesn't work... I'm not sure why you'd ever take a PM feral, really.
Pets are okay at defending and (as you note) mediocre for hunting. Why you insist on spending 100% of your time defending and hunting remains a mystery.
I'm still waiting on your explanation of what should've happened in that raid you posted. This "the problem isn't getting fixed" refrain is hard to get upset about when your problem goes about as far as "petmasters can be killed."
Also, there's really no good reason you'd want to keep a 10-pet horde from the get-go, really. Why not keep just 6 and an elite?
I'm level-capped, have very little time to play, and a member of a relatively small faction which would otherwise be an appealing target for other small factions who sometimes have marginal anti-pet capabilities -- no tank, underleveled tanks, only an IB with inadequate potion support, etc.
Also, having ten pets plus the resources to summon more is useful when you're solo raiding as a PM and have to deal with a similar number of pets on the other side, and/or kill tanks by sheer brute numbers.
Of course, I'm also not complaining, I think petmasters are one of the stronger archetypes in the game and Liches in particular are probably too good. (Although it's really just Ghouls.)
Yeah, I getcha, I was mostly saying for the case of non-maxxed PMs that still need to get exp and such things. Once you're capped it's perfectly reasonable to maintain a larger horde to pump-up defence and offence.
RaelCleap wrote:
-snip-
When you're low levelled you gotta get exp, not use all your resources putting up defences. That's like asking your mortals to build your forts. As I said before, you're shooting yourself in the foot.
So what you are saying is, a PM is no use in a small faction until maxed and badge maxed...
MADNESS!
That's sad for game evolution and up and coming small factions. They go with no defense because a system is flawed. Because the best way for a PM to currently progress xp and badge wise is not staying at the SH, as told by many pro's in this thread.
@ Krylio: I find staying at the enemies SH after a raid yields more for the PM than the actual raid or going home to die and loose my horde v an inevitable recap.
Also MADNESS! _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Last edited by RaelCleap on Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total
Also in our raid culture my feral PM's live longer. Know why? Because I'm not sat in a fort with a big Bullseye painted on my face. People don't know where I am. As feral those who stumble where I am, are not prepped and usually die yielding xp... oh and the badge resource obvious gains in feral life.
If only there were a class with relatively weak travel skills, but which had a huge discount on getting home right after dying, and tremendous utility in a downed stronghold. They'd be so suited to factional play!
Oh, wait.
e: Also, a PM is useful as soon as they have their upgraded main pet plus their tier 2 mana-restoring ability. Nearly everything else is window dressing; my Lich has Aura of the Crypt and Simulacrum because he can, not because he needs them.
Last edited by Kiralio on Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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