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I doubt VWs will get 50 damage ward bashing - we kinda took away the multiplier because it got stupidly strong, especially for a T2 skill. T3 skills focusing on wardbashing (and, well, skills to specialise in stuff in general) is something I like the idea of. (Of course, there's not really been any discussion on that, so no promises )
On the note of no promises, Kandarin and I have been discussing a 120cp childskill to Ultimate Suffering that does nothing. _________________ hi
I doubt VWs will get 50 damage ward bashing - we kinda took away the multiplier because it got stupidly strong, especially for a T2 skill. T3 skills focusing on wardbashing (and, well, skills to specialise in stuff in general) is something I like the idea of. (Of course, there's not really been any discussion on that, so no promises )
If there's one demon who should be the super basher, I figure it should be the IB. A giant, flaming monster feels more like the sort to come leading the charge right through your ward, whereas the shrieking banshee and the nightmarish shadow feel like they should come sliding in afterwards. Also if Destructive Blow is going to be an upgrade to Hellfire then a T3 super bash should maybe be tied to Rage Strike.
But that's a conversation for another thread, isn't it?
I doubt VWs will get 50 damage ward bashing - we kinda took away the multiplier because it got stupidly strong, especially for a T2 skill. T3 skills focusing on wardbashing (and, well, skills to specialise in stuff in general) is something I like the idea of. (Of course, there's not really been any discussion on that, so no promises )
If there's one demon who should be the super basher, I figure it should be the IB. A giant, flaming monster feels more like the sort to come leading the charge right through your ward, whereas the shrieking banshee and the nightmarish shadow feel like they should come sliding in afterwards. Also if Destructive Blow is going to be an upgrade to Hellfire then a T3 super bash should maybe be tied to Rage Strike.
But that's a conversation for another thread, isn't it?
Actually we were hoping to give Tanks stuff to rip apart Fortifications. It'd be the casters who are good against wards.
My standing placeholder stuff for the tank charge attacks starts with:
* Ignores fortifications
* Deals damage to fortifications equal to the damage done to the target.
Joined: Aug 15, 2010 Posts: 3955 Location: Gehenna (Earth Branch)
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:04 pm Post subject:
To be fair the image of a massive behemoth tearing through the barricades like tissue is pretty realistic _________________
"Oh, sorry, thought I was in a Vault of Enlightenment, not someone's booze cabinet." -Kharn
On the note of no promises, Kandarin and I have been discussing a 120cp childskill to Ultimate Suffering that does nothing.
For the price of a fully upgraded Judgemaster (Judgemaster not included), you too, can cry an ocean about buying a skill that does nothing.
Shadok wrote:
To be fair the image of a massive behemoth tearing through the barricades like tissue is pretty realistic
To be honest, that is a fair assessment.
I'm curious, Speaking of Redeemed, has the idea of Fallen/Redeemed being a little different depending on whether they entered via a combat class or magic class ever been broached?
Teksura wrote:
[*]DIVINE ARMOR (20 CP) (Paladin)
* Innate Armor
* 2 Soak vs all damage types.
>> Intended to be a bit more desirable than mundane armor. The goal here is to maintain Divine Armor as an important part of being a Paladin, but keep the Divine Herald from having huge soak which the Revenant and Void Walker can't get. Expect the Seraph and the Holy Champion to get skills which further increase their soak, but no more soak for the Herald.
[*]Blood Claws (20 CP)
* Grants innate weapon, Blood Claws.
> Base 100% accuracy, this is affected by all melee dodge, as well as any global combat accuracy buffs such as Strong Attack
> Damage calculation is strange.
>> Damage = 6 base + Any combat bonuses - appropriate soak/resistances from target. After all of this has been calculated damage is multiplied by 0.75 (round down)
>> Damage type is variable.
>> A Pariah has 60% Slashing, 25% Piercing, 10% Impact, and 5% Unholy
>> An IB has 35% Slashing, 35% Fire, 20% Piercing, 10% Unholy
>> A DH has 25% Slashing, 25% Death, 25% Cold, 15% Piercing, 10% Unholy
>> A VW has 25% Slashing, 25% Death, 25% Piercing, 25% Unholy
>> A Redeemed (who has fallen to Evil again) has 60% Slashing, 25% Piercing, 15% Holy[/list]
Going to wrap my head around this.
Pariah with Strong, Elite Attack vs Paladin with Divine Armor
9 unspecified damage. -2 unspecified soak from divine armor. (How does it decide which of the target's soak to use?)
Mm, Morality includes decimal numbers, this is an opportunity for Health to also be decimal numbers, so that Pariahs can actually do 0.25 unholy damage.
Or, if soak is applied to all of the damage types individually...
Pariah with Strong, Elite Attack vs Paladin with Divine Armor
Those numbers you're seeing on Blood claws are the odds of that damage type being selected. It's not dealing multiple damage types. It decides which of the targets soak to use by soaking whatever type you're dealing. You're looking at dealing 5 damage every swing against a Paladin with Divine Armor.
Also what you assumed is not how multiple damage types (supplemental damage) actually works in 4.0 design. Right now the leading plan is that any and all supplemental damage will ignore an amount of soak equal to the amount of soak the primary attack was subjected to. Effectively, when you deal with only 2 damage types, it soaks whatever type has the most soak (assuming damage floor is never hit). When you start dealing more than 2 damage types you actually want your primary attack to be subject to the same or more soak than any of the other types you're using, in order to avoid taking extra soak hits. _________________
Last edited by Teksura on Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Those percentages are the chance to deal each type. The bloodclaws aren't going to deal all the damages at the same time. That is, on avarage, every 20th strike your bloodclaws will deal unholy. On avarage, every tenth strike they deal impact. About 1 in 4 strikes deals piercing, and the rest of the time they deal slashing.
Also, the order of calculations you've got is wrong. The skills first apply soak (so 9 slashing -> 7 slashing) and then deal with the multiplier (7x0,75= 5,25) for a total of 5 damage.
For a target with no soak, it'll deal (with combat buffs) 6 dmg.
Bloodclaws doesn't sound particularly strong - the 0,75 multiplier cuts off it's edge, so to speak - But I think the real power comes from the fact that it doesn't require a combat tree, and has 100% accuracy. Also, being able to deal different damage types may prove very valuable, depending on target.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Tek _________________ "I am your Slave
And you will Reward me
For I shall be Faithful."
(That's from Dracula, by Stoker.)
Here is the story on Blood Claws and why it's a 100% accuracy skill!
Blood Claws is and always has been a really, really iconic skill of the Pariah. We all loved it. We needed it. However, Blood Claws is pretty clearly a hand to hand combat skill. We really, really didn't want any class to feel like it was forced into ta specific combat tree- especially at the tier 2 level. We ran over a number of options, including simply giving the Pariah an innate weapon based on their tree (Blood Dagger? Blood Pistol? Blood Rock?) But that all just felt awkward and heavy handed.
Instead, we made it a fixed 100% accuracy skill. All Pariahs have the capacity to rip into someone with their claws no matter what weapon they use. So rather than having a 25% chance your attack does nothing, we just reduce the damage by 25%
It's not terribly powerful, but it may find a place as a handy backup weapon for ranged characters, or as a tool to deliver charge attacks. _________________
I've noticed this breath (on my NC) that there have been two groups of blood claws users: one that will work with Adaptation, alternating attack type to finish the kill; and a second slightly smaller group, that will just spam blood claws until it's time for them to leave without a kill.
The first group doesn't need any help, but the second will find the varying damage types quite useful.
The question is should there be a reward for less thoughtful play? I apologize in advance if that seems like some sort of jibe.
I think the actual question is "will Adaptation be gutted next breath?", and I'm 90% sure I read a dev saying it will be in IRC, so that's a moot point.
t. tailwhip main
ps: fuck adaptation and resistance _________________ IF WE LOOK AT ROME AND SEE OUR HOME, THE END IS ON ITS WAY
Tek has mentioned it already, so I guess I have the go ahead to say it.
Adaption will definitely not be giving immunity in B4. The exact replacement will not be decided until we finish most other classes, so any mention of how it will work is pure speculation until we actually finish them. _________________ - Officer Horwood frowns. "A fallen angel and a redeemed demon. This looks like the start of a bad joke."
I'm not wedded to any skill except for spell casting on the NC as a class, so that perhaps devalues what I'd say: a change to adaptation would be most welcome. I fall into interesting > blindly semi-effective, if only because interesting means more thoughtful play.
Overall the skills shown at this point do look really good and I do like the removal of ES from myrm as that as well fits into interesting > blindly semi-effective. It's better to learn how to do without.
Those numbers you're seeing on Blood claws are the odds of that damage type being selected. It's not dealing multiple damage types. It decides which of the targets soak to use by soaking whatever type you're dealing. You're looking at dealing 5 damage every swing against a Paladin with Divine Armor.
Also what you assumed is not how multiple damage types (supplemental damage) actually works in 4.0 design. Right now the leading plan is that any and all supplemental damage will ignore an amount of soak equal to the amount of soak the primary attack was subjected to. Effectively, when you deal with only 2 damage types, it soaks whatever type has the most soak (assuming damage floor is never hit). When you start dealing more than 2 damage types you actually want your primary attack to be subject to the same or more soak than any of the other types you're using, in order to avoid taking extra soak hits.
Hypothetically, a Judgemaster is using both its primary and secondary attack against a Nexus Champion in the same attack. 10 holy damage and 6 electric damage. The primary attack is subjected to 4 points of holy soak, which allows the secondary attack to ignore 4 out of 6 points of electric soak. In the end, the attack does 6 holy damage and 4 electric damage. This is how it works, yes? No?
Teksura wrote:
Here is the story on Blood Claws and why it's a 100% accuracy skill!
Blood Claws is and always has been a really, really iconic skill of the Pariah. We all loved it. We needed it. However, Blood Claws is pretty clearly a hand to hand combat skill. We really, really didn't want any class to feel like it was forced into ta specific combat tree- especially at the tier 2 level. We ran over a number of options, including simply giving the Pariah an innate weapon based on their tree (Blood Dagger? Blood Pistol? Blood Rock?) But that all just felt awkward and heavy handed.
Instead, we made it a fixed 100% accuracy skill. All Pariahs have the capacity to rip into someone with their claws no matter what weapon they use. So rather than having a 25% chance your attack does nothing, we just reduce the damage by 25%
It's not terribly powerful, but it may find a place as a handy backup weapon for ranged characters, or as a tool to deliver charge attacks.
Is this the future of innate weapons? Standard weapons for those who do not have a combat tree? If the h2h characters are no longer getting blood claws, then what are they looking forward to?
Hypothetically, a Judgemaster is using both its primary and secondary attack against a Nexus Champion in the same attack. 10 holy damage and 6 electric damage. The primary attack is subjected to 4 points of holy soak, which allows the secondary attack to ignore 4 out of 6 points of electric soak. In the end, the attack does 6 holy damage and 4 electric damage. This is how it works, yes? No?
That's not how pets work (although my LS would love that). They switch to their secondary damage type if they've attacked with their primary and it did 0 damage due to immunities. But if that were supplemental damage, then as far as I understand it that's how it'd work.
vvaivi wrote:
Is this the future of innate weapons? Standard weapons for those who do not have a combat tree? If the h2h characters are no longer getting blood claws, then what are they looking forward to?
Our current plans for innate weapons basically revolve around 2 main bonuses for them - the first is that you *always* have them. 0 maintenance, 0 need to go looking for new weapons, 0 weight. The second is that we *can* give them unique stuff, like a random damage type or 100% base accuracy. Now, we may or may not do other innates with a high base accuracy like this, we haven't really decided.
The bonuses H2H get in B4 is 0 maintenance and not needing to carry about weapons. We're trying to balance the combat trees so that you can get more damage/accuracy at the cost of a higher amount of preparation.
Here is the story on Blood Claws and why it's a 100% accuracy skill!
Blood Claws is and always has been a really, really iconic skill of the Pariah. We all loved it. We needed it. However, Blood Claws is pretty clearly a hand to hand combat skill. We really, really didn't want any class to feel like it was forced into ta specific combat tree- especially at the tier 2 level. We ran over a number of options, including simply giving the Pariah an innate weapon based on their tree (Blood Dagger? Blood Pistol? Blood Rock?) But that all just felt awkward and heavy handed.
Instead, we made it a fixed 100% accuracy skill. All Pariahs have the capacity to rip into someone with their claws no matter what weapon they use. So rather than having a 25% chance your attack does nothing, we just reduce the damage by 25%
It's not terribly powerful, but it may find a place as a handy backup weapon for ranged characters, or as a tool to deliver charge attacks.
Is this the future of innate weapons?
No, that is the future of Blood Claws. _________________
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