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It looks like a case of put up with it, and shut up.
There is a reason behind it, and that reason was explained when you brought it up before. We're tired of repeating ourselves, so as for the latter part, please do. Most of your posts in this thread have been lamenting about this exact thing which was already discussed, and the thread was even linked. You know it's not going to happen and you know why we found it to be a terrible and impractical idea. But you keep bringing it back up over and over again to the point where we're starting to see it as thread hijacking. Enough.
I disagree, of corse they are lamenting words, and this is why.
Are Pet Masters not spell casters, do they not have relevance in the T2 bracket?
The reasons / Issues you gave originally are mute in light of the depth and scope of the new B4 skills. Plus the fact the game is being rewriten / in development. So is the book not open on revisiting such things?
The vacume for Pet masters in the T2 brackets, which I feel is being ignored out of bone idleness, or just down to a dislike for this point of view. It could be implemented in a really easy, fun, worthwhile and balanced way, if you acctually thought out the box, or bothered to address the issue.
Which I might add, I doubt was even considered
The fact that a PM doesn't get to play its role until T3 <---- the big one and a sign of bad game development.
You tell me, what RPG game have you played where your class doesn't get to play its role until endgame play? I can name one, and it is the only one that comes to mind.
So yes, lamenting words because you are making a bad RPG development mistake, ignoring potential and the issues on this matter.
It also does not fill me with faith on how the other big Issue will be handled, "How to immprove and encourage feral play"
or the other worry about the acctual "Pet development."
Lamenting words of "CRITIRSISM" Tek'! It is not my problem if it is taken badly, or if you don't listen. But it does effect the game and gameplay, THAT's what concernes me as a "PLAYER!"
FYI, why would I lament or critisize the other skills when I like them? When you only critisize the negative, or what isn't there / does not work, when developing. Unless the only purpose of this thread is about stroking the Dev's ego and telling them how great they are? Rather than addressing what isn't there and why, or to give critersism!
Now I wil shut up... and put up with the bad choices of B4 Nexus Development. _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Last edited by RaelCleap on Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:02 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Oct 12, 2015 Posts: 1085 Location: The United States of America
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:00 am Post subject:
Inb4 an announcement thread is locked. _________________ 8:17 PM - BlackHeartKabal: HOW IS 42 KILLS AN A
8:17 PM - BlackHeartKabal: FOURTY TWO
8:17 PM - BlackHeartKabal: FOURTY TWOOOO
8:17 PM - BlackHeartKabal: IS ONLY AN A
8:17 PM - BlackHeartKabal: HOW DO YOU GET AN S ON LEBLANC
The fact that a PM doesn't get to play its role until T3 <---- the big one and a sign of bad game development.
There's lots of things people don't get to do until T3.
- No one gets travel skills until T3.
- Enchanters can't enchant until T3.
- In fact, none of the T3 specialty classes exist and get their specializations until T3.
And you know why all those special things are saved for T3? Because they're what makes the hard work of getting there special. T3 is a radical change of abilities from T2, not just a continuation of the same stuff, but better. It's supposed to be that way. So stop acting like it's just you because it isn't; it's everyone. And - spellcasting changes for B4 aside - it doesn't look like major class stuff like petmaster skills or enchanter skills are going to change to that kind of degree.
/me goes back to hoping that combat angels will someday be able to throw cars again. Because it's too cool.
And - spellcasting changes for B4 aside - it doesn't look like major class stuff like petmaster skills or enchanter skills are going to change to that kind of degree.
/me goes back to hoping that combat angels will someday be able to throw cars again. Because it's too cool.
Oh there will be many changes to both of those mechanics. I can't go into specific details quite yet as we've not hammered anything beyond the concept stage, but there is a lot of talk about how pets pick their targets, and what it means of certain pets which are "smarter" about it. As for throwing cars, all I know is my gut says maybe. _________________
While I think the line of conversation has gone off course, I do think the question of "what are petmasters intended to do while leveling up" is a good one to look at.
As I see it, especially with the changes, there are a lot of character types which have things to do at lower tiers. Thanks to the spell changes, Adepts can be fairly Adept-y with some mundane combat and magic, even if it means only one spell at T1. Crafters/Enchanters can be searching and crafting things at Level 1, and can be making materials for enchantment in T2. Hunters can, if inefficiently, hunt.
I will admit that part of the problem is that "Pet Master" can have a vast difference of playstyles, even for one class. I know that when I ran a (Nexus War) Elementalist, I mostly dumped my MP into summoning one big pet and then used Archery for kills, before swimming home. Lightspeakers might get along with Surgery or Heal Other, although I wouldn't presume that every Lightspeaker levels up that way. Myself, I also has a Surgery Lich Zombie hoarder in Nexus Clash, although partially for RP as much for usefulness.
I'm just wondering if it is a good idea to discuss the different petmaster playstyles to see if they can function through T1-T2, and if that is a playstyle that NC4 wants to encourage. Or has that discussion already taken place?
And throwing around cars again sounds like lots of fun.
Energize being replaced with (less effective) mala beads brings shepherds a little closer to how defilers currently are regarding passing MP along. Obviously energize would have to be nerfed at least as hard as heal others with the newfound MP imbalance & would be all but useless to other spellcasters in that state.
I like what I'm seeing from this changelog in particular. It's fun to play with new systems & the spellcaster experience has always been uneven level by level & class by class. The granularity of spell CP costs in particular has kept me from building characters particular ways in the past, so hopefully the new system can lead to more builds based on players' huge capacity for flavor & imaginative new ways to make the game need rebalancing
Regarding petmasters; an extra spell slot + mirror image should be a very powerful combination for petmasters who raid or are active enough to occasionally defend raids. T2 is preparation for T3 for all classes really, the buffs stack but ultimately nobody's end goal is a perma-T2. You can pick secondary things you want to be good at but even for a petmaster-to-be who doesn't want some secondary focus the utility spellgems can add a lot of survivability into future raid situations.
Regarding petmasters; an extra spell slot + mirror image should be a very powerful combination for petmasters who raid or are active enough to occasionally defend raids. T2 is preparation for T3 for all classes really, the buffs stack but ultimately nobody's end goal is a perma-T2. You can pick secondary things you want to be good at but even for a petmaster-to-be who doesn't want some secondary focus the utility spellgems can add a lot of survivability into future raid situations.
Its not the destination, it is the Journey. I agree with all you say bar the PM sentiments... *hears the forum groan*
Healing, reading, repairing / disabling (15 ap really), to level to T3 as a feral PM player after already getting the badges in B3.5 is going to be a chore. So yeah, a couple of months-ish before the classes role is useful in feral defence or offence. Especially for none combatant PM's...
...most of all it is dull and boring for the player, plus healing as a feral is a tad ineffective. (in context to the skills discussion)
This will not encourage new players to use the class! In likelyhood it could put people off the class, or drop it as a whole, if they are new to the game. The bar is set to high, before the PM become fun to play. The player has to wade through 20 chore filled levels offering NO reward (If a player has the badges already), for a long period of time! The only thing you achieve are skills banked for T3. This is a flaw in my oppinion.
I thought Feral play was being encouraged in B4? But thus far I haven't seen anything that would. In fact most of the skills discourage feral play.
(in context to the skills discussion)
Durations and MP costs.
*shrugs* _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
Last edited by RaelCleap on Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:10 am; edited 1 time in total
Energize being replaced with (less effective) mala beads brings shepherds a little closer to how defilers currently are regarding passing MP along. Obviously energize would have to be nerfed at least as hard as heal others with the newfound MP imbalance & would be all but useless to other spellcasters in that state.
Exactly why it was removed! I mean, energize is silly enough as it is without shepherds having 4 times as much mana. We couldn't find (and honestly didn't really want to waste time trying to balance) a version that's useful to everyone without being balanced. And I mean, if it's only useful to combat classes, who *should* be constrained by mana for certain things... do we even want that?
The mana items won't be anywhere near as efficient as energize was.
Yeah, sorry. I meant, in this situation where energize has been nerfed so it isn't horribly broken for combat classes (but is still worth energizing them), it's then too small to be worth energizing casters with compared to what they would be able to easily get themselves and how much MP they need to use their skills.
The question of what are petmasters supposed to be doing in tier 2 is an easy one, I'm surprised nobody has given the answer because everyone already knows it.
Consider this:
What are Tanks supposed to be doing in tier 2? Adepts? Hunters? What's the difference? characters who want to be Tanks lack their Tanking skills at tier 2 and can't perform the role, but I have never seen anyone question what they're supposed to be doing prior to that point. Likewise, Hunters lack their hunting skills until tier 3, but I don't see anyone talking about how lost or confused they are trying to find a source of XP. It's no different for casters. You find something to do that suits you. If you eventually want to be a Lightspeaker who joins the faction on raids, just keep doing what you've already done to get to tier 2, and keep killing demons. If you can never make the raids and instead wish to play a more laid back and passive "stay at home" Lightspeaker, then you find something that suits your playstyle, such as crafting, healing, or reading. There is no "one size fits all" answer for XP for any class. When you level up, you find a source of XP that suits you and you do it. It's just that simple.
I'm just astounded that everyone seems to understand this concept when it comes to Tanks and Hunters, but then doesn't get it here. A lot of people sound like they believe that if you intend to become a petmaster, you're not allowed to do anything. I mean, someone can go off and say it's dull and boring to have to start at level 1 instead of starting at the endgame, but the same could arguably be said for any game with a progression system. Of course the late-game stuff is going to be more powerful and interesting than the early game stuff.
Triallst wrote:
As I see it, especially with the changes, there are a lot of character types which have things to do at lower tiers. Thanks to the spell changes, Adepts can be fairly Adept-y with some mundane combat and magic, even if it means only one spell at T1. Crafters/Enchanters can be searching and crafting things at Level 1, and can be making materials for enchantment in T2. Hunters can, if inefficiently, hunt.
I don't want to make any promises, but you have touched on something here which I personally would like to see if we can do. Specifically, Adepts and their mix of the mundane and magic and ability to play as a spell slinger. It should be reasonably possible to play a spell slinging Adept, although I admit tier 2 will be a rather difficult time. There are a bunch of ideas for Adepts which we have, but have yet to actually go over and vet (meaning some of them might be really bad ideas). One of these ideas which we're really not sure about is a skill that was an awful pain in my side for breath 1 and 2: Martial Spellcraft. This might be an interesting combat option which may require 2 combat trees to pull off. The rough idea here is that you attack with your mundane weapon and then also have extra damage and the spell effects channeled through the weapon on a hit.
Like I said, I can't make any promises because these ideas have not been vetted and once we sit down and start trying to put the pieces together we may find that we can't put this one in without taking away something else. But i can say that we are very likely to ensure that the ability to play a "spell slinging adept" should be there, and even if we can't make Martial Spellcraft work as I described, if any class is going to hold the flavor of mixing martial and magic, it's going to be one of the Adepts. _________________
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